Handgun advice.

[UberGoober]

Dead men don't hire lawyers

Mickey Spillane for the 21st Century.

[N-Ish]

Anyone have opinions on the Beretta Cougar ?

[hybrid]

Big15...... You should rethink you opinion on my personal training or what people should be doing if pointing a gun. You have no idea where I learned to use a gun or what mode of thinking I should have when using it. You can "STOP" all the threats you want and one day you might not wake up from a threat "STOPPING" you in return. Or maybe your stop just didnt stop that threat. I dont need to go into detail on my training nor will I disclose what exactly I own as far as weapons. If someone needs to find out, it will be a bad day for them.

I would love to see how many people out of a thousand can double tap a 10mm. I would leave it in the tens if that. This is also a reason I sent one to have it "worked" if you read my entire post. All I end up hoping for is being able to regroup into a tighter package. Make no mistake, I can empty a clip into the center of mass on a 15 round clip and might have 1 or 2 strays of the target in rapid fire situation. It does take a perfect stance and a slow draw test. But the beauty of it like I stated before is that if I connect with one shot, I am pretty sure the intended target is dead or will be dead shortly. Its pretty hard to stop a leak like that.

As for the flaming? Just remember who said I need to re-evaluate my gun training. I dont care what class you took, I was taught to kill or be killed. Its that simple. And I hate to tell you this but yeah, I am fully prepared to pull the trigger if needed. I sleep well at night.

[Big15]

Originally Posted by hybrid

Big15...... You should rethink you opinion on my personal training or what people should be doing if pointing a gun. You have no idea where I learned to use a gun or what mode of thinking I should have when using it. You can "STOP" all the threats you want and one day you might not wake up from a threat "STOPPING" you in return. Or maybe your stop just didnt stop that threat. I dont need to go into detail on my training nor will I disclose what exactly I own as far as weapons. If someone needs to find out, it will be a bad day for them.

I would love to see how many people out of a thousand can double tap a 10mm. I would leave it in the tens if that. This is also a reason I sent one to have it "worked" if you read my entire post. All I end up hoping for is being able to regroup into a tighter package. Make no mistake, I can empty a clip into the center of mass on a 15 round clip and might have 1 or 2 strays of the target in rapid fire situation. It does take a perfect stance and a slow draw test. But the beauty of it like I stated before is that if I connect with one shot, I am pretty sure the intended target is dead or will be dead shortly. Its pretty hard to stop a leak like that.

As for the flaming? Just remember who said I need to re-evaluate my gun training. I dont care what class you took, I was taught to kill or be killed. Its that simple. And I hate to tell you this but yeah, I am fully prepared to pull the trigger if needed. I sleep well at night.

You show your ignorance by using improper terms. I would like to see you put a clip into your 10mm. I would hardly call saying you need to re-evaluate you gun situation flaming. However you called me a pussy. As far as the 10mm, it is an impressive caliber. However it is still no magic round and pretty much all handguns are poor defense weapons. Soldiers get shot everyday with rifle rounds and don't die so don't expect guaranteed one shot stops with a 10mm.

[hybrid]

Well, hmmmm..... clip = magazine? In most circles its the same thing but if you wanna go all GUNS & AMMO feel free to use the terms as you want.

Now I never once called you a pussy, I simply stated that you remind me of those I consider pussies.

Now if you knew anything about weapons you would know that almost all rifle rounds are full metal jacket and that the round is designed for penetration. A 22-250 will go through a bullet proof vest and if it doesnt hit bone it will leave a body with a hole just slightly bigger than the entry wound. This would be an ideal situation for surviving the shot.

Hand guns usually use a hollow point. They typicaly have a blunt nose and will not usually penetrate a vest. A hollow point is designed to expand on contact to dissapate the force and hopefully hit bone so that it may fragment and or travel through the body destroying more tissue and doing more damage. The Hydroshock is named for it being a round that dissperses so much energy it would make all the water in your body ripple and thus kill you, I dont remember the exact terms federal-mogul uses but its a streamlined version of the intended effect.

A 10mm hydroshock would enter the body with a 10mm hole, expand and hit bone, change direction and cause massive trauma then if it still had enough velocity would exit leaving a hole between the size of a golf ball and a base ball. Hence the reasoning for bleeding out quickly. Its pretty hard to fix someone thats missing 2 lbs of vital organs and flesh. Its also the reason I favor the 10mm as it has enough powder that it isnt going to stop halfway thruough the chest cavity like a subsonic .45 round.

So please feel free to keep with your silly talk and I will continue to put forth facts, without telling you what training I have and havent had. I can promise you it was extensive though.

[Big15]

Originally Posted by hybrid

Well, hmmmm..... clip = magazine?
So please feel free to keep with your silly talk and I will continue to put forth facts.

HAHA nice facts you are putting forth to me. Thanks for the lesson. Click link below.

Difference between clip and magazine for the guy that puts forth facts.

This is a good part of the article for the fact guy.

"Some people say that the distinction between a clip and a magazine is a distinction that doesn't matter much. "As long as you get the point," they say, "what does it matter?" Well, there are a number of reasons. The main reason is that when you speak to people who are familiar with firearms, you sound somewhat UNEDUCATED when you ask if you can run a clip through their AR-15. Secondly, for those of you who are lazy, to type in 'clip' takes 4 keystrokes, whereas 'mag' only takes 3."

[hybrid]

seems kinda funny that I put it equals the same thing in most circles. If you wanna start throwing your guns and ammo pages out why dont you check for ballistic facts on rifle rounds versus handguns and the intended damage.

As anyone here in the military on the concept of war and they will tell you that the intended action is to maim and injur more than kill. A dozen wounded men require more attention than a dozen dead ones. Wounded men will lower moral for the rest of the soldiers. Hence the reason for automatic fire, you can spray more bullets into a target area, wasting most of those rounds, hoping you hit someone somewhere. You dont care where they are hit, but you dont see guys standing there squeezing rounds off indiscrimanently with a hand gun, Thats your last defense so it has to count.

[hybrid]

Oh and we dont need to get into sniper rifles for killing as its the only way to insure a kill at long yardage

[Big15]

Originally Posted by hybrid

The Hydroshock is named for it being a round that dissperses so much energy it would make all the water in your body ripple and thus kill you, I dont remember the exact terms federal-mogul uses but its a streamlined version of the intended effect.

The myth of the shockwave

Should I keep proving you wrong?

[ASCI_Blue]

Originally Posted by Big15

No I bet you need to actually take a GOOD handgun self defense class and I guarantee you they don't say shoot to kill. You say I sound like the guy that goes around waving guns to make myself feel tough but you are the one that has the 10mm that can't shoot a doubletap with it. Why would you carry something you can't shoot well. You say you can doubletap with the 9mm well. That would be so much better of a gun for you to carry since you shoot it better. Even hear the saying I would rather have a hit with a .22 than a miss with a .45. You should not make assumptions about me and my beliefs. I am the furthest thing from a liberal. It doesn't matter if you kill the guy or not, you are more than likely going to get sued. If he is dead you will get sued by the family. I never said a thing about a leg shot or anything like that. You should shoot COM anytime you might have to shoot your weapon. I will state it again and I am not wrong on this. You shoot to stop a threat, not to kill. If the guys dies then so be it but you DON'T shoot to kill. Live in reality buddy, no matter what you say no one here, not me, not you, not anyone is prepared to pull that trigger if you ever need it and I hope none of us ever do.

Thanks for flaming me too, you show your maturity.

Everything that I've taken reguarding firearms classes have ALWAYS said shoot to kill. Also double tapping is irrelevent to how well someone can use a gun. Since I can't doubletap with my AR, guess I suck with it right? Meanwhile with my shittyass vision I can put 30 rounds into a man size target at 100 meters using iron sights. Also why would I only shoot to stop a threat? Stopping a threat is meaningless. Threats have been known to stand up and continue being a threat or to never stop being a threat. To stop a threat is to eliminate it.

As for not being ready to pull the trigger, you'd be surprised pal. Some of us have been trained to do so and will do so without hesitation.

[hybrid]

Originally Posted by Big15

The myth of the shockwave

Should I keep proving you wrong?

What the hell does sonic waves from a rifle round have to do with a 10mm HOLLOW POINT handgun round? Furthermore what the hell does a sonic wave have to do with the effect from a semi blunt object being sent into a body that contains at least 70% water? ever throw a rock in a pond? what happens to the water when the rock enters? It ripples. Hence the effect of a hollow point round. Its main purpose is to expand and cause as much damage as it can. Does that mean that your leg will explode from a shot to the upper abdomen? No and no one really expects that. But you do expect the the round expanding at contact will disperse the energy throughout the body,causing KNOCK DOWN. If a person was shot cleanly with a rifle round it would enter and exit without knock that person down (given its velocity was still high) The movies you watch showing a person get thrown down from a round entering them are false. To be knocked down you must recieve a blunt trauma from a round, it has to disperse enough energy to counter the weight of the target.

Like I said, the people that have had real training in weaponed combat will know I speak truth. Those that dont may decide to go play cops and robbers with you.

ASCI: thank you for your verification

OH SHIT ASCI: I just saw that you live in bend (over) I lived there for a couple of years. Is the population bigger than 40K people now? I loved that place, would have stayed if I was retired. It just sucked that the funnest thing there was road side coffee huts and the tiny mall. But hey you used to be able to leave your keys in your car and not worry about it being gone when you got out of wherever you were at

[hybrid]

From the federal mogul site:

Hydra-Shok®: Features a unique, patented center post design and notched jacket. Delivers reliable, controlled expansion for efficient energy transfer and stopping power. Designed for law enforcement, hunting, home defense and personal protection.

NOTE* controlled espansion for efficient energy transfer.

Now my post that you quoted did sound semi dumb with the ripple effect but it was used loosely as knock down and then able to be killed. I should have elaborated more but you dont listen anyways....... GO!! MATRIX!!!! < sarcasm

[Big15]

Originally Posted by ASCI_Blue

Also why would I only shoot to stop a threat? Stopping a threat is meaningless. Threats have been known to stand up and continue being a threat or to never stop being a threat. To stop a threat is to eliminate it.

As for not being ready to pull the trigger, you'd be surprised pal. Some of us have been trained to do so and will do so without hesitation.

Why would stopping a threat be meaningless? All I ever stated is that you don't shoot to kill, you shoot to stop a threat. If you kill the guy the threat is obviously stopped. If you shoot a guy and he immediately happens to throw his gun down or something to that nature you have stopped a threat as well. If you shoot someone once in a self defense situation and they "give up" somehow, I am not sure what to say there sorry, and then you shoot them again you are making the legal consequences much worse on yourself. That is all I was ever getting at. In each situation the threat was stopped. If a threat gets back up and continues being a threat then obviously you do what needs to be done. Maybe this all started over bad terminology. When I made the pulling the trigger statement I was refering to the aftermath. Anyone that is carrying a weapon or owns a weapon for self defense should be sure they can actually physically and mentally pull the trigger if their life is in danger. I have been trained as well and hope I would not hesitate either. I don't think anyone is ready for what is going to happen afterwards, both mentally and legally. I am sorry I have never killed someone and I hope that I and everyone else here never has to pull a trigger in self defense so I don't know for sure what I would be like.

[Big15]

Hybrid, anyway I am going to stop here because we have bastardized this thread enough. I said what I wanted to say and you said what you wanted to say. BTW I don't think I said this before but I like the 20 and will probably get one someday.

[ChloroFiend]

My $.02..

One of the rules of firearm safety is to never point a gun at anything that you don't want to kill/destroy. I'm not shooting to wound, I shoot to kill. End of Story.

AFA .40 vs 10mm goes...they're VERY comparable rounds. 10mm is a bit hotter in terms of recoil but it has one nasty feature...a LOT of penetration. The damn thing just doesn't stop in bodies...well, at least the first one. For a defense round, .40 would be a better bet. The FBI agrees and that's one of the reasons they switched.