Nationalism and Religion greatest threat to mankind?

[Psychopilot]

Just wondering how everyone feels about these two things. Historically these 2 factors have led to the death of millions over the years. (Nationalism a more recent development then Religion). One could also throw in materialism with a capitalist,communist,or socialist name behind it. But will these two factors cause such widespread violence that it will become the downfall of the human race or on a smaller scale greatly deminish the world population? I think so. Time frame isn't limited. So could happen in 10 years or 1000. What are your thoughts?

[RbbrDckyBK]

Originally Posted by Psychopilot

Just wondering how everyone feels about these two things. Historically these 2 factors have led to the death of millions over the years. (Nationalism a more recent development then Religion). One could also throw in materialism with a capitalist,communist,or socialist name behind it. But will these two factors cause such widespread violence that it will become the downfall of the human race or on a smaller scale greatly deminish the world population? I think so. Time frame isn't limited. So could happen in 10 years or 1000. What are your thoughts?

Wow, somebody who thinks like I do. That's rare, and scary. Agree 100% -- I've been saying the same thing for years.

You've got two things that should bring people together, but instead mostly serve to tear them apart. They create convenient dividing lines between people, fostering prejudice, fear, and hate. Religion especially, at least historically.

Nationalism isn't too bad except in the US at this point. The ironic thing about this one is that most of the worst nationalists in the US actually consider themselves patriots, calling people that would actually be defined as patriots things like anti-American.

[jim schmidt]

Basically I sort of agree. These are two bonding mechanisms of "delusional superiority." Superiority is the "rational" basis for aggression. The idea is that people delude each other into believing they are superior and therefore endowed with the wisdom to decide to destroy other (delusionally supposed to be inferior) people.

Religion and nationalism are the groupings most often assembled to delude each other in this way. But the concept scales up or down from neighborhood gangs to high school cliques to sports teams, to governments, religions, continents and (theoretically) planets.

Wow, that looks really obtuse when I read it. The basic idea is that foolish people will assemble in groups, convince each other that they represent the superior group and wage destruction on whoever they decide is inferior. The specific groups you describe aren't warlike by their nature but by groupthink delusions.

[DarNinja]

I have strong opinions on this matter; although, I can't wait to read what solly has to say!!!

I'll just let him speak for me

[SVBeest]

Originally Posted by jim schmidt

Basically I sort of agree. These are two bonding mechanisms of "delusional superiority." Superiority is the "rational" basis for aggression. The idea is that people delude each other into believing they are superior and therefore endowed with the wisdom to decide to destroy other (delusionally supposed to be inferior) people.

Religion and nationalism are the groupings most often assembled to delude each other in this way. But the concept scales up or down from neighborhood gangs to high school cliques to sports teams, to governments, religions, continents and (theoretically) planets.

Wow, that looks really obtuse when I read it. The basic idea is that foolish people will assemble in groups, convince each other that they represent the superior group and wage destruction on whoever they decide is inferior. The specific groups you describe aren't warlike by their nature but by groupthink delusions.

Holy crap, this is what happens when too many brains spend too much time in "think-tanks".

Seriously though, MOST religions do not promote violence. Islam doesn't, christianity doesn't, buddha sure didn't; so I'm not sure you can place a general bane on all religion. Certain overreaching sects and people otherwise known as "idiots" can create a greater hysteria than is actually supported by the rest of the group. The problem is that too many people are sheep, and just go with the flow because it's easier than standing up.

Nationalism and religion are not the problem, the problem is a long standing fight about what is morally and legally acceptable. The fighting will continue becuase of humanities inability to agree on what is right and wrong and their willfull attempt to force that on others (for better or worse).

[RbbrDckyBK]

Originally Posted by SVBeest

Seriously though, MOST religions do not promote violence. Islam doesn't, christianity doesn't, buddha sure didn't; so I'm not sure you can place a general bane on all religion.

The actual religions themsevles are not the problem. Take your pick -- they're all basically the same on a lot of levels. It's the people that belong to them. It's not really different than the whole "my sports team is better than your team" mentality that makes fans fight with eachother in the stands at sporting events. Anytime you divide unintelligent people into different groups, no matter how trivial, they're going to find ways to fight and kill over how theirs is superior. Jim expressed it better than I did.

[Psychopilot]

[/quote] Originally Posted by jim schmidt
Basically I sort of agree. These are two bonding mechanisms of "delusional superiority." Superiority is the "rational" basis for aggression. The idea is that people delude each other into believing they are superior and therefore endowed with the wisdom to decide to destroy other (delusionally supposed to be inferior) people.

Religion and nationalism are the groupings most often assembled to delude each other in this way. But the concept scales up or down from neighborhood gangs to high school cliques to sports teams, to governments, religions, continents and (theoretically) planets.

Wow, that looks really obtuse when I read it. The basic idea is that foolish people will assemble in groups, convince each other that they represent the superior group and wage destruction on whoever they decide is inferior. The specific groups you describe aren't warlike by their nature but by groupthink delusions.[quote]


Bingo. You hit it right on the head. But being generalistic and simplistic, if the world ends it will be becaue of someone acting as behalf of a religion or an overzelous nation of patriots. Trying to keep things half way simple. Other wise this will turn into a human psychology and social behavior debate. Although I have always wondered why we tend to seperate ourselfs so readily in everyday life. Sportbikers v harleys, school v school, city v. city, state v state, nation v. nation etc. Kinda makes you wonder why we naturally seperate each other into groups then try to assert ourselves over others in some form of superiority. Its like we are preprogrammed to be oppresive and destructive.

RbbrDckyBK- We are a rare breed indeed. Although I still think nationalism is a very dangerous thing. Just like religion it can be used to cause massive destuction.

SVBeest- I agree that religion in the purist form doesn't cause these problems but neither does capitalism, communism, socialism, nationalism, democracy, etc. They are all perfect in the purest sense, but it is the people who screw it up. Afterall I never heard of someone being killed by a bible or by the word religion. What the point I am making is that if the world ended, it would be because some group of idiots acting on behalf of one of the things listed above.

[3l1t3]

Originally Posted by RbbrDckyBK

The actual religions themsevles are not the problem. Take your pick -- they're all basically the same on a lot of levels. It's the people that belong to them.

Yes!! Never underestimate the stupidity of people in large groups.

Anytime you divide unintelligent people into different groups, no matter how trivial, they're going to find ways to fight and kill over how theirs is superior.

The George Carlin comedy special comes to mind.

"And thou shall try really hard not to kill anyone, unless of course they pray to a differenet invisible man then you!"

[icarus]

Heres my thought on the matter. I do believe the factors of religion , race , nationalisim, have built and destoyed lives for thousands of years . they kill us but were would be wothout these ideas. Masses of people strivving for a common goal working together with a like belief has done alot of good for mankind . TWO sides to a coin, good and bad .I visualize a pyramid everyone wants to rise to the pinnacle of the pyramid, but soon find they cant get there alone, so they seek out like minded people to bond with on their quest for power, money love respect, and survival. It can be ugly but the way life is . But within there groups they find the things they all desire form the moment they are born within these groups. i know the curent trend of academia is to be the lone wolf to support no group , but the truth is we are all in a group of some kind and its an illusion to believe u arent . As far as religion being a danger , well religion is the window of which u view the world, what and how u choose to see it . Becuse in strictly scientific terms we are all a collection of electrons and atoms moving through an infinite sphere of space and time . Religion, poetry love hate, avarice are all the things that bind us make us human, and without the company of other like minded people the universe can be a lonely place .

[Tekvicious]

Without nationalismyou have no pride...without religion (as a base anyway) you have no code. A dash of both equals progress. Neither,and you'll have chaos. Too much and you'll be breeding assholes.

[firefighter81]

BAH! Organized Religion is exactly what is wrong with this world. I'll leave it at that.

[wescoas1]

I can't stand nationalism, especially looking at what it has caused in the past and still causes today. Religion is fine as long as it doesn't become a kind of epistomological nationalism, where patriots of a religion look down on every other group. There are certain things where it is good to be proud, but neither nationalism or religion are adequate reasons. It's the same as being proud that you just so happened to be born in a certain town rather than another on the other side of the world. It makes no sense whatsoever.