Want a 600? Read This!

[acalliste]

I see nothing changed while my internet was down and I was at Jennings. Great opening post, and back-up arguments though.

[NeekTav]

Originally Posted by Fargin_Bastige

Stats are generalized because humans can be. What you are doing is trying to personalize something that isn't personal. This is just another way of claiming you're different or special. Claiming this doesn't apply to you

Yes humans CAN be "general" but not always and to assume all new riders on here are the same type of people is wrong. I've Never said it doesn't apply to me.I've said all along only SOME of it applies to me.

Again, and for the 50 billionth time, stats do not need to be individualized because humans aren't individuals in their behaviors. They do the same stuff, are subject to the same mistakes, wants, needs, actions and other behaviors

.This is your opinion and my opinion is not all humans are exactly the same. How can you say everyone does the same actions, has the same needs and wants the same things?

You're not special because you're human. Welcome to the club.

I'm definetly not special but I know humans are all different(personality,tendencies,demeanor etc).

[lemosley01]

Originally Posted by NeekTav

Yes humans CAN be "general" but not always and to assume all new riders on here are the same type of people is wrong. I've Never said it doesn't apply to me.I've said all along only SOME of it applies to me.

.This is your opinion and my opinion is not all humans are exactly the same. How can you say everyone does the same actions, has the same needs and wants the same things?
I'm definetly not special but I know humans are all different(personality,tendencies,demeanor etc).

Humans are different in certain specifics, but most of how humans act CAN be generalized. There is an entire field of science (actually two) dedicated to this called Sociology and Anthropology.

It may be your opinion that humans cannot be generalized but the science and math proves your opinion wrong.

edit: We have to assume all new riders are the same for several reasons:
1) We don't know them, but we do know the statistics. It is best to err on the side of caution, at least in our opinion
2) 600ss bikes are not ideal learning platforms. There is no question about that. If you have to ride the bike slow to learn on it, then you have gotten an inappropriate learning platform.
3) Our experience proves to us that new riders (and we were new riders ourselves once) make the same mistakes. There is no avoiding it because motorcycling is something that is learned, not inherited or instinctual.

When you come and ask for our advice, and we give it to you based on the 3 above factors, then you choose to argue with us because it wasn't the answer you hoped or wanted, the fact is that you ARE proving you are no different than the people from which you claim you are different. You try to justify using the reasoning that is very clearly disproven in the stickies. From a logical standpoint there is no argument against what is in the stickies. Therefore, disregarding it is illogical - illogical just like deciding to drink and ride.

[Lewd Ferrigno]

Originally Posted by NeekTav

Yes humans CAN be "general" but not always and to assume all new riders on here are the same type of people is wrong. I've Never said it doesn't apply to me.I've said all along only SOME of it applies to me.

.This is your opinion and my opinion is not all humans are exactly the same. How can you say everyone does the same actions, has the same needs and wants the same things?
I'm definetly not special but I know humans are all different(personality,tendencies,demeanor etc).

Well, let me ask you a series of questions:

1. How do you mitigate the risk of drinking and riding?

[NeekTav]

Originally Posted by lemosley01

edit: We have to assume all new riders are the same for several reasons:

You can assume all riders are the same but you must realize some are not the same. I understand the err on the side of caution as I wouldn't recommend a bike to anyone without knowing them. But when someone says they are not the type people claim they are its funny when people go off on them saying "You think your special" and "You think your riding your bike to its limits,but your not" etc.

When you come and ask for our advice, and we give it to you based on the 3 above factors, then you choose to argue with us because it wasn't the answer you hoped or wanted, the fact is that you ARE proving you are no different than the people from which you claim you are different. You try to justify using the reasoning that is very clearly disproven in the stickies. From a logical standpoint there is no argument against what is in the stickies. Therefore, disregarding it is illogical - illogical just like deciding to drink and ride

Not here asking advice so there is no answer I was hoping for or wanted. Another agruement that is normally used and has no truth.Just here to diagree with the stats and the fact that people view all new riders as the same type of people.

This has nothing to do with the start small or big issue directly just have a problem with some of the arguements used on the start small side. So the stickies mean nothing to what we are talking about.Other then the fact that some of the reasonings used on the start small side are in the stickies.

[NeekTav]

Originally Posted by Fargin_Bastige

Well, let me ask you a series of questions:

1. How do you mitigate the risk of drinking and riding?

Get to the point or ask all the questions at once.

[lemosley01]

Originally Posted by NeekTav

You can assume all riders are the same but you must realize some are not the same. I understand the err on the side of caution as I wouldn't recommend a bike to anyone without knowing them. But when someone says they are not the type people claim they are its funny when people go off on them saying "You think your special" and "You think your riding your bike to its limits,but your not" etc.

Now this is just flat out dumb. If you are riding a 600ss to the limit, then you are a professional racer. Sorry guy, but that is the simple truth. You might [baccidentially[/b] hit the bike's limits, but that is different than purposefully and knowingly riding to it's limits. The fact you make such a statement shows just how little you still know.

Not here asking advice so there is no answer I was hoping for or wanted. Another agruement that is normally used and has no truth.Just here to diagree with the stats and the fact that people view all new riders as the same type of people.

New riders WILL make the same mistakes - in that regard they are ALL the same. What part of motorcycling is instinctual in the human race?

FB and I have pointed out the studies that show that new riders are more at risk of crashing than an experienced rider - just like new drivers are more likely to crash than experienced drivers. You can add other factors that make a new rider even more likely to crash, but the fact remains that a new rider is at more risk, and those risks only increase. You cite alcohol and speeding as major risks, but refuse to recognize that starting on a supersport is inserting more risk and claim you are different somehow - that this risk doesn't apply to you just like not drinking and riding doesn't apply to you.

All you have shown is opinion. You have not one factual piece of evidence to prove otherwise. Meanwhile all your 'arguments' do is convince the lurker-newbies on the site that they are also special and the exception.

edit: Do you wear gear? If so, why? If statistics don't work and people can't be generalized in such ways, then why do you wear gear - the risks don't apply to you, so the need for gear strikes me as superfluous.

[R1oldguy]

I kind of like it when we are NOT being "civil".
But, whatEVER!!

[NeekTav]

Originally Posted by lemosley01

Now this is just flat out dumb. If you are riding a 600ss to the limit, then you are a professional racer. Sorry guy, but that is the simple truth. You might [baccidentially[/b] hit the bike's limits, but that is different than purposefully and knowingly riding to it's limits. The fact you make such a statement shows just how little you still know.

Your right that is flat out dumb. I'm not the one who said it, but its been said on this site from experienced riders to new riders.Basically claiming the new riders think they are riding their bikes to their limits .I dont even think the pros ride the bikes to the limits,close but they can always improve also.

New riders WILL make the same mistakes - in that regard they are ALL the same. What part of motorcycling is instinctual in the human race?

That is opinion. Not all new riders will make the same mistakes.And yes that is my opinion. And niether opinion can be proved wrong.

FB and I have pointed out the studies that show that new riders are more at risk of crashing than an experienced rider - just like new drivers are more likely to crash than experienced drivers. You can add other factors that make a new rider even more likely to crash, but the fact remains that a new rider is at more risk, and those risks only increase. You cite alcohol and speeding as major risks, but refuse to recognize that starting on a supersport is inserting more risk and claim you are different somehow - that this risk doesn't apply to you just like not drinking and riding doesn't apply to you.

Didn't we just go through the whole baseline risk of x that you cant go below issue that we both agreed on?
For someone who keeps their risk as close to x as possible dont show the stats you do because their filled with cases of people who inserted risk way above x. Show stats of people who keep the risk at x and still crashed.And yes I know it happens and we are at a higher risk than an experienced rider with our same demeanor.

[lemosley01]

Originally Posted by NeekTav

That is opinion. Not all new riders will make the same mistakes.And yes that is my opinion. And niether opinion can be proved wrong.

So we've moved into the realm of 'ignoring statistics and refuting all proof given to you by claiming it is opinion.'

It is fact. Statistics prove it. Part of learning is doing things wrong while you are learning. You are ignoring the sum-total of the entire experience of the human race, not to mention all the math that goes behind it.

Once again, I challenge you to name something about motorcycling that is instinctual in the human race. If it is instinctual, then it can be done without mistake.

I know of one human instinct that does apply to motorcycling - self-preservation. That same instinct is what causes riders to do the wrong things.

New riders grab too much throttle, too much brake, not enough brake, the wrong brake, they target fixate, they don't countersteer, they counterlean, they get afraid and bail out. They may not know they are making these mistakes, but they are making them.

[mabaty]

I got a 600rr for my first street bike, and i am not gonna defend myself with dumb reasons to start with one, they are very fast and I can safely say that the power of the bike, can scare the hell out of you, i am kinnda glad now that i live on a 7x16 mile island where there are not to many straight long roads, mountains, narrow turns or speed limits above 40,which again is not me justifing it. It's me saying now that i already have it i am glad i do not live back in Virginia full time.... Oh and the island is Nantucket, MA for the record.

[Little Joe]

That is opinion. Not all new riders will make the same mistakes.And yes that is my opinion. And niether opinion can be proved wrong

Are you intentionally missing the point? Of course not ALL new riders make the SAME mistakes. But "ALL new riders WILL make mistakes" is a fact. It is also a fact that many of the mistakes new riders make are the same (chopping throttle mid-turn, grabbing front brake too hard, entering a turn too hot, etc.). This comes from a lack of skill and a lack of (motorcycle) judgement.

Show stats of people who keep the risk at x and still crashed.And yes I know it happens and we are at a higher risk than an experienced rider with our same demeanor.

This was the point all along, that new rider's are at more risk than experienced rider's without inserting additional risk on either end.

So why do you still argue against starting small, i.e. at less risk. Yes a smaller bike can still get you into trouble, but are far more forgiving of newbie mistakes.

-Joe-

[NeekTav]

Originally Posted by lemosley01

So we've moved into the realm of 'ignoring statistics and refuting all proof given to you by claiming it is opinion.
It is fact. Statistics prove it. Part of learning is doing things wrong while you are learning. You are ignoring the sum-total of the entire experience of the human race, not to mention all the math that goes behind it.

not ignoring stats that are stats of people of my equilvalent.And yes its your opinion that ALL riders WILL make the same mistakes.

Once again, I challenge you to name something about motorcycling that is instinctual in the human race. If it is instinctual, then it can be done without mistake.
I know of one human instinct that does apply to motorcycling - self-preservation. That same instinct is what causes riders to do the wrong things.

Not sure why your trying to say my opinion is some new riders dont make any mistakes.

How did this turn into whether or not new riders make mistakes? If this is where your headed in conversation you will be alone

[NeekTav]

Originally Posted by Litte Joe

This was the point all along, that new rider's are at more risk than experienced rider's without inserting additional risk on either end.

I agree.I dont like the stats given because they include riders who do insert risk and I dont.

So why do you still argue against starting small, i.e. at less risk. Yes a smaller bike can still get you into trouble, but are far more forgiving of newbie mistakes.

Never agrued against starting small,I just have a problem with the stats themselves and the way they are used in arguements.

[lemosley01]

Originally Posted by NeekTav

I agree.I dont like the stats given because they include riders who do insert risk and I dont.
Never agrued against starting small,I just have a problem with the stats themselves and the way they are used in arguements.

Edit -
lemosleyo1 qoute from post #67"New riders WILL make the same mistakes - in that regard they are ALL the same" As you say "of course not ALL new riders WILL make the same mistakes.I agree with you Litte Joe I just took issue with lemosley01 on this point. Many of the mistakes may be the same but not all.

Are you 12? Is that what you want to base your argument on? 'But you said...'

There are a number of mistakes that are common amongst all new riders. Read 'Twist of the Wrist II' and 'Total Control' - they are all listed there and I guarantee you ALL new riders make those mistakes. Many experienced riders, myself included, still make some of them (chopping the throttle, not looking through the turn, overriding vision).