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New Rider ForumsJust joining the motorcyclist hobbie? Looking to get some information about a first bike? Or have some newbie questions. Are you new to the website?
I was slowing down for a stop yesterday, and my rear tire lost traction for a second. No turn - this was in a straight line. I was braking about 60% front 40% rear and downshifting to slow down. I guess I must have downshifted to soon, because my rear tire lost traction for a second.
Anyone have this happen to them? Is downshifting to soon what caused it?
I avoid using the rear brake myself because it is counter intuitive. Suppose you want to brake...you pull the lever. Suppose you want to brake harder...you pull the lever harder. However, with the rear brake the harder you brake with the front the less you must brake with the rear because the weight of the bike gets thrown onto the front tire.
when you downshift, the engine speed (RPMs) have to be raised to smoothly go into a lower gear. the reason for this is the transmission spinning needs to match the engine speed upon clutch engagement.
if you dont match the speeds (or get close) the shifting will be VERY rough and will damage the clutch (over time) and cause the bike to lurch and become unsettled. this is why your rear tire came loose.
OK, there are some back brake myths that I want to dispell here and now. There is no such thing as "Way too much back brake" unless the sucker is locked up. To effectively use you brakes you should use them both to their fullest.
That said, you have to remember that when you brake, the bike shifts its weight forward and lifts weight off the back tire, meaning that the amount of braking force it can handle is reduced quite a bit (so it locks up sooner). The harder you brake with the front, the less you will be able to do with the back.
Under no circumstances should you go light on the front brakes to keep the back end down just to get maximum braking force from it (unless there are some control circumstances you have to deal with). If you are totally jumping on the back brake and then modulating the fronts, you are doing it wrong and need to work on your technique. You should use the fronts with as much power as they can stand and modulate the back brake lever so that you are getting the max out of it without locking it up. I know this is counterintuitive and anyone who has ever looped a ten speed bicycle will naturally shy away from this, but 10 speeds aren't motorcycles so you need to practice this until you get it right.
Because this is so difficult, some guys ignore the back brake altogether but I have always thought that is just wrong. For best braking you need to use all the brakes you have to their fullest. Just remember, grab the fronts with all the force they can handle and then (a billionth of a second later) hit the backs with everything they can stand short of lock up.
Harvester gives a pretty decent explanation of why your wheel can skip around when you down shift. Under heavy braking like I just described, downshifting is one more element acting on the rear wheel that you have to consider. When you downshift, the engine adds to the braking force acting on the rear wheel (hence the term "engine braking.") People get around this by blipping the throttel (revving the engine up) and then downshifting, that way there are no real sudden jolts to brake the wheel loose.
Braking is a practiced skill. Understanding how it works is just one part of doing it well, practice is the other.
Lost of engine breaking can cause the rear tire to hop even with no rear brake. I've done it several time while riding aggressively, even when rev matching during downshifts if the engine RPM was really high the rear wheel would skip a bit. That's what slipper clutches are for.
Learn to rev match.
Blip it!
I'm not telling you to use or not use the back brake. MSF does teach to use it. Properly done I'm sure it's better to use it along with the front. With that said, I havent touched the rear brake in over a year. I do ride track only these days.
As stated above, use your brakes to their fullest. If need be, worry about your downshifts when most of your braking is done.
Blipping the throttle is done while the clutch is pulled. This will make your downshifts smoother. It will not hurt your clutch if you aren't the smoothest. Rear wheel chatter isn't even that hard on your transmission, but it will surprise you and surprises aren't what an inexperienced rider needs.
You can also minimize the effects of engine braking by letting the clutch out slower, allowing the engine to gain the revs slowly. This take quite a bit of practice to get good at and it can still bite you in the ass (ask Aaon Yates).
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Last edited by OldSchlPunk : 03-31-2007 at 11:23 PM.
OK, there are some back brake myths that I want to dispell here and now. There is no such thing as "Way too much back brake" unless the sucker is locked up. To effectively use you brakes you should use them both to their fullest.
it sounds to me like the OP did lock his rear wheel, that would be "too much rear brake" even by your definition, yes?
it sounds to me like the OP did lock his rear wheel, that would be "too much rear brake" even by your definition, yes?
We can argue semantics but you will note my post qualified my statement with the phrase "unless the sucker is locked up" which you even left in your quote. The whole phrase is: "There is no such thing as "Way too much back brake" unless the sucker is locked up." i.e. "Nothing short of locking it up is too much back brake." or even more simply stated "Locking it up is too much back brake, but other than that there is no such thing as too much back brake."
My point in posting is that a lot of guys tell new riders to not really use their back brake. There was another post in this thread that hinted that and based on my years of experience running this forum I knew that others would soon follow. My post was intended to stop that.
I firmly believe we should teach people the right way to do stuff, not the work arounds. There is a technique to using your back brake to the fullest but it is tough to learn so a lot of guys ignore it. If they have to pull an emergency stop one day, they might regret that when they run longer than they needed to. Of course I know this is going to be controversial. A lot of guys ride just fine without ever touching the back brake. I think they would ride even better with it. ('nuff said.)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redmenace
it sounds to me like the OP did lock his rear wheel, that would be "too much rear brake" even by your definition, yes?
I would say no. Sounds like he downshifted and didn't try to rev match. This is why slipper clutches were invented, as engine braking can cause the rear wheel to lock up or hop.
Losing Traction When Downshifting?
