Things you should think about in talking to a new rider, for the experienced folks

Lewd Ferrigno · 02-04-2007, 12:21 PM

Since there has been a ton of validation and little teaching going on in here lately, here are few tips from the most hated man in show business.

1. Don't validate: If you are teaching something, the idea is not to validate something and move on, it's to provide the reasoning, concepts and FACTS behind the idea.

2. If you use the words "I think" or "I feel" in front of your answer, you should take a step back and research what you're talking about before answering.

3. If you've been riding for less than 36 months, please don't give advice without letting people know that. Between months 1 and 36 you are most likely to get into an accident and the highest risk time is the period between months 12-36.

4. Always start from ground zero. Assume that the person asking has no clue, regardless.

5. Just because someone road a bike 20 years ago doesn't mean its open season to any displacement. Returning riders are crashing their brains out and dying due to their propensity to over buy. Trust me on this one newbs, my 93 GSXR750 racebike was far slower than any 600 you can buy off of the floor nowadays. I looked up the speeds for an AMA winning superbike from 1990 and it was slower than any current literbike you can buy. Technology takes huge leaps each year and so do the speeds.

6. Biking is LEARNED, not natural. I played sports in school. I box, play hockey, Semi-pro baseball, I started on a national championship winning flag football team as a defensive end and I've played other sports. I am an above average athlete.

None of this applies to riding a bike safely. I went to school, learned and keep learning on a constant basis. It is a learned skill that is hugely mental. The physical aspect comes into play, but more so, on the track than on the street. Stressing the mental aspect of riding is the key to properly conveying the message.

7. Learn your topic. If you’re going to advise, have the teacher's edition handy. There's a ton of info out there and you obviously have the internet. Use it and research.

8. Know that everyone is the same. Regardless of protestations of difference, everyone is subject to the same issues. I don't care if Michael Schumacher came in here and said he'd never ridden a bike before or Joe Blow off of the street. Both cases would be from ZERO and they would both face the same challenges and issues for a new rider.

There seems to be a thought process that if someone sounds mature or is older that they will somehow be safer. This is incorrect. Even if someone practices restraint on a throttle, it doesn't mean they're mitigating all risk. I go back to learning. If you've ridden for any length of time, you know that throttle is not everything.

IMHO 50% of the time, it's the situation you're put in on the street that's the most challenging. What part of the lane do I ride in? Does that car ahead look like it's going to cut in front of me? I am approaching an intersection, what am I looking for? These few examples (and there are thousands of others) are what I run into every time I ride and none of them involve speeding. Speeding actually isn't as big of a killer as everyone makes it out to be. Loss of control is far more common.

In short, everyone is subject to the same learning curve when starting

9. Think twice about passing advice you've been given. If it sounds stupid, it probably is. This is a rash on our sport and should be treated as such. So, no more flipping over the handlebars when grabbing the front brake comments and the like.

10. Respect has little to do with learning. We often use the word respect when riding a bike. Why would respect have anything to do with it? Riding a bike is a mental process.

When you first learned math, did the teacher put the book down in front of you and you learned it by respecting it?

Respect is BS. If you hammer a throttle in a corner on a big bike, you'll probably fall. That's not due to lack of respect, that's cause and effect. Everything you do has a reaction that can be positive or negative. If you LEARN properly, you should get the positive reaction. Pick the right learning tool (smaller bike) and learn the proper technique (MSF and ongoing education). In short, you don't learn through respect in any other discipline, why should it be different on a bike?

shiro23 · 02-04-2007, 12:36 PM

From a new rider point of veiw i would just like to add that it doesnt hurt to be curtious either. Latly alot of people jump on people who consider a 600 or bigger for their fist bike or their returing bike after XX amount of years from riding. I think that instead of everyone with experiance trying to scare the hell out of new riders, explain to them why a 600 or bigger is not the right choice. But do so calmly not with the "get one and die attitude".

Obviously starting with 600CCs or bigger is frowned upon on this particular website more so than others. But with a new riding season on its way that means many more new riders to discover the site, and many more "I want a gixxer 1000 for my first bike, but is there one faster?" Not biting their heads off would be more inviting to them, and possibly make them a good contributer to the community in a whole sometime in the future.

Lewd Ferrigno · 02-04-2007, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiro23

From a new rider point of veiw i would just like to add that it doesnt hurt to be curtious either. Latly alot of people jump on people who consider a 600 or bigger for their fist bike or their returing bike after XX amount of years from riding. I think that instead of everyone with experiance trying to scare the hell out of new riders, explain to them why a 600 or bigger is not the right choice. But do so calmly not with the "get one and die attitude".

We point them towards the stickies. Please read them.

The reality of what is being faced by motorcyclists (rising death rates for the past 10 years) is not pretty. You should be informed that this is a dangerous sport. No one should sugar coat reality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiro23

Obviously starting with 600CCs or bigger is frowned upon on this particular website more so than others. But with a new riding season on its way that means many more new riders to discover the site, and many more "I want a gixxer 1000 for my first bike, but is there one faster?" Not biting their heads off would be more inviting to them, and possibly make them a good contributer to the community in a whole sometime in the future.

Why should anyone validate this behavior? Your assertion that people should capitulate to someone because they are not making a smart decision is ludicrous.

I am concerned more about rider safety than I am about site recruiting.

EDIT: 900RR? Gotcha.

mikem317 · 02-04-2007, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fargin_Bastige

... here are few tips from the most hated man in show business.

The most hated? Now don't be modest.

Good thread, good read.

meangreenzxr · 02-04-2007, 01:26 PM

good read and well put........just hope it does'nt get
forked!!!.....

shiro23 · 02-04-2007, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fargin_Bastige

We point them towards the stickies. Please read them.

The reality of what is being faced by motorcyclists (rising death rates for the past 10 years) is not pretty. You should be informed that this is a dangerous sport. No one should sugar coat reality.

Why should anyone validate this behavior? Your assertion that people should capitulate to someone because they are not making a smart decision is ludicrous.

I am concerned more about rider safety than I am about site recruiting.

EDIT: 900RR? Gotcha.

When i started off here i read the stickys because i frequent internet fourms and know what they are. Some others may not have the same fourm experiance. And i think everyone knows that this is a dangerous sport, and i agree that reality should not be sugar coated. However maybe proper explaniation of the risk involved is alot more effective than just stating the end result. Knowing that you can die isnt informitive, knowing what you can do to prevent that death is. That is why so many riders here, including myself push people to get proper gear, or at least a helmet/jacket/glove combo and some nice thick workboots(non steel toe).

I also didnt say to valitade the behavior, but rather to steer them away from it without lashing out at them. When i started here many of you(well not you inparticular) talked to me calmy, like i wasnt a compleate idiot. The positive feedback, and guidence without rude or inapropriate comments is what steared me to get my used Gs 500, when i could have had the used GSXR 600 that was right next to it for about 900 bucks more.

And while site recruting isnt what i had in mind, i ment it as if they stay here they can continue to learn safer habbits, info for their first track day, read others experiances on a daily basis rather than be shun the first day, go buy a liter bike, and continue down the wrong path for many years to come if they make it.

PS: I started small, just because i have a 900RR now, doesnt mean that i started with it. I learned to ride first on my 500, took my MSF course, got all my gear, got alot of street experiance including several long trips and everyday commuting experance. AND THEN i got my 900. I was agreeing with you in your first post, however you jumped to conclusion about my own riding, which is exactly what i was refering NOT to do.

acalliste · 02-04-2007, 01:39 PM

Great post, FB. This has been needed for quite a while. Thanks for taking the time to put it in words.

Everyone else............

bush · 02-04-2007, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiro23

PS: I started small, just because i have a 900RR now, doesnt mean that i started with it. I learned to ride first on my 500, took my MSF course, got all my gear, got alot of street experiance including several long trips and everyday commuting experance. AND THEN i got my 900. I was agreeing with you in your first post, however you jumped to conclusion about my own riding, which is exactly what i was refering NOT to do.

Threadjack...

Reality works against you. You're 19, you have less than 7 months riding experience (it's obviously cold in RI, so I doubt you're riding now) and you jumped from 500 to 900. Seven months isn't a lot of experience no matter how you look at it.

Maybe you are a great rider, but the odds say otherwise.

/jack

Lewd Ferrigno · 02-04-2007, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiro23

When i started off here i read the stickys because i frequent internet fourms and know what they are. Some others may not have the same fourm experiance. And i think everyone knows that this is a dangerous sport, and i agree that reality should not be sugar coated.

This is not the case. Many people don't consider the risk. If they did, half wouldn't get in. I know this by how many people quit after a crash.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiro23

However maybe proper explaniation of the risk involved is alot more effective than just stating the end result. Knowing that you can die isnt informitive, knowing what you can do to prevent that death is. That is why so many riders here, including myself push people to get proper gear, or at least a helmet/jacket/glove combo and some nice thick workboots(non steel toe).

Knowing what to do to mitigate risk is informative. If I stand a 60% higher chance of something bad happening to me if I go one direction vs. the other, this means that if the rider chooses the former, he is going against logic and becoming more susceptible to risk. You have to look at it both ways. Presenting one side is doing a disservice to the argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiro23

I also didnt say to valitade the behavior, but rather to steer them away from it without lashing out at them. When i started here many of you(well not you inparticular) talked to me calmy, like i wasnt a compleate idiot. The positive feedback, and guidence without rude or inapropriate comments is what steared me to get my used Gs 500, when i could have had the used GSXR 600 that was right next to it for about 900 bucks more.

We all talk calmly. Just because you can't perceive my voice inflection from behind a keyboard, doesn't mean I seethe.

I'm glad someone got through to you, but you did get a 900 at 19 with little riding experience, and that leads me to believe that your move was inevitable and you wouldn't listen anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiro23

And while site recruting isnt what i had in mind, i ment it as if they stay here they can continue to learn safer habbits, info for their first track day, read others experiances on a daily basis rather than be shun the first day, go buy a liter bike, and continue down the wrong path for many years to come.

No one shuns someone. The truth is not always pretty. If someone comes in and wants a literbike as a starter, they are told it's a bad choice. Whether you disagree with the verbiage or not, no one busts in with a "fucking moron" comment. I present the facts, personally. If you argue with them, then you're arguing with the numbers. Numbers never lose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiro23

PS: I started small, just because i have a 900RR now, doesnt mean that i started with it. I learned to ride first on my 500, took my MSF course, got all my gear, got alot of street experiance including several long trips and everyday commuting experance. AND THEN i got my 900. I was agreeing with you in your first post, however you jumped to conclusion about my own riding, which is exactly what i was refering NOT to do.

Not at all. I posted in the first post that 12-36 month of experience is when you put yourself in the most danger. When I saw your age, combined with the size of the bike, I put the numbers together. Its simple math.

Taking the MSF and riding one year is not an open license for safety. You are statistically safer when you reach your 4th+ year of riding.

The 900 you bought is not a logical step up for a 500 rider. Even if you went with a 600, I would say it was more logical. You've rushed along your purchase and have put yourself at risk. This is not being mean or condescending, this is numerical.

Lewd Ferrigno · 02-04-2007, 02:01 PM

And here's a table from the MAIDS study concerning rider experience in months/accident statistics.

mikem317 · 02-04-2007, 03:41 PM

While the graph is fairly intuitive, what's "exposuredata" referencing?

Lewd Ferrigno · 02-04-2007, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikem317

While the graph is fairly intuitive, what's "exposuredata" referencing?

From the MAIDS report:
Exposure data

In order to identify potential risk factors associated with PTW operation or use, it was necessary to compare the accident data with the characteristics of the PTW/rider population riding within each sampling area. This is referred to as a case control study wherein the cases (i.e., the accidents) are compared with an identical non-accident population (i.e., the circulating riding population within the sampling area). Statistical comparisons of the characteristics of this PTW/rider population and the accident population provide a method of estimating whether or not a risk factor (e.g., PTW style) is over or under-represented in the accident database and whether or not there is greater or less risk of being in an accident if that risk factor is present. It was the objective of this study to identify and examine as many of these risk factors as possible. This methodology has been used successfully in previous in-depth motorcycle accident studies (Hurt et al., 1980, Haworth et al., 1997).

From the statistical point of view, the validity of the exposure data, based on the population of riders and PTWs at risk in the accident sampling area, was given by sampling the same number of cases as selected for sampling the accidents: i.e., one control case had to be collected for each accident case. The collection of additional control cases would not have increased the statistical reliability or power of the data and therefore, one control case was sufficient (Breslow and Day, 1980). Video surveillance of PTWs moving through the accident scene one week after the accident was considered as a potential method of collecting vehicle information and a very limited amount of rider information. Unfortunately, this method provided none of the human factor data critical to understanding the human contribution to accident risk. Furthermore, stopping PTW riders on the roadway was against the law in some areas as well as a logistical challenge; therefore, an alternative methodology had to be
developed.

An alternative control data collection method was developed by the University of Pavia research team. The method involved conducting PTW rider interviews and PTW inspections at randomly selected petrol stations within the sampling area. This petrol station methodology provided both the human and vehicle control data necessary to estimate the relative risk of a given factor using standard statistical procedures. A total of 923 PTW riders were interviewed using the petrol station methodology and each rider responded to over 200 human factor and vehicle questions. Each of these responses was entered into a database that was forwarded to the University of Pavia.

Hanya · 02-04-2007, 04:06 PM

Nicely done layout of key issues, FB.

For this reason I know I don't give too much advice on riding behavior, but Mr. Shiro he does have a very good point concerning your age, bike size, and lack of experience - so don't get all defensive b/c you and I and a lot of other people are in the same boat. I posted my "reference" in the sticky because most of the motorcyclists I encounter are both young and new riders, so I read a lot on how to give them good, helpful, and safety pointers when I go out and ride with them.

90zx7 · 02-04-2007, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fargin_Bastige

We point them towards the stickies. Please read them.

The reality of what is being faced by motorcyclists (rising death rates for the past 10 years) is not pretty. You should be informed that this is a dangerous sport. No one should sugar coat reality.

Why should anyone validate this behavior? Your assertion that people should capitulate to someone because they are not making a smart decision is ludicrous.

I am concerned more about rider safety than I am about site recruiting.

EDIT: 900RR? Gotcha.

Im actually one of those newbs starting on a ancient zx750. Selling it tomorrow and going to get a smaller 500 to learn on. I rode it a few more times on 25 degree weather and while i was freezing. The bike didn't feel very comfortable to me and it's way too heavy at almost 500lbs wet. Going smaller to learn then go with 600 cc bike later in the year.
Thanks for all the input.
Robert

Lewd Ferrigno · 02-04-2007, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 90zx7

Im actually one of those newbs starting on a ancient zx750. Selling it tomorrow and going to get a smaller 500 to learn on. I rode it a few more times on 25 degree weather and while i was freezing. The bike didn't feel very comfortable to me and it's way too heavy at almost 500lbs wet. Going smaller to learn then go with 600 cc bike later in the year.
Thanks for all the input.
Robert

Ride safe and get some schooling!!

(<this smiley always makes me have to say, don't drink and ride

)