Thinking of starting on a 600cc+ bike? look inside...

[RACER X]

Originally Posted by mikeinnc

All comes down to maturity...When

not ALL, but alot.......i have plenty of mature students crash in my class.

[bush]

Originally Posted by mikeinnc

All comes down to maturity...

Very few aspects of riding come down to maturity. See my previous post.

Paraphrase:
Maturity won't help when you get into a situation that requires practice and experience to resolve safely.

[I_R1rider]

Originally Posted by Meltdown

The fact remains that a more experienced rider would have not grabbed a handful of throttle the way he did. Furthermore, if he had done that on a 250 Ninja, it wouldn't have yanked the front tire off of the ground. It is that simple.

Might not the point also be made, that if he learned on a 250 one may learn to not respect the throttle? If a beginners bike is constantly forgiving, does not put any fear in you, then when one upgrades all they have learned is that being stupid never mattered..that he could be irresponsible with the throttle and get away with it.

In my case, I am not an irresponsible pusshead. Unless by sheer accident I mistreat my throttle, I have the fear of God in me that I need to ride according to my capabilities. This is a mental maturity. If I was on a 250, I may thrash it more because I know I can. But how does that "teach me" to respect a bikes power? I would think it makes people more complacent.

I never had a throttle run away from me because I never allowed myself to believe that I needed to be anything other than careful with it, until I became familiar with it.
Nate

[bush]

Originally Posted by I_R1rider

Might not the point also be made, that if he learned on a 250 one may learn to not respect the throttle? If a beginners bike is constantly forgiving, does not put any fear in you, then when one upgrades all they have learned is that being stupid never mattered..that he could be irresponsible with the throttle and get away with it.

Anybody who thinks they can be irresponsible will be sorted out long before he moves up from that 250.

[WickedAngel]

He didnt have too much trouble getting there, it was just starting to get dark and traffic wasnt too heavy. He hangs around and talks with all the guys who have bikes just like him. Then, bout an hour later or so, they all put the helmets on, fire the bikes up, and start rev-limiting each other. The new guy thinks this is pretty cool... these guys know what theyre doing... just follow along. After that, they head out into the town headed for the interstate... now the new guy who was doing pretty well getting to the Taco Bell, is being put in a position he is completely unprepared to handle. Unfortunately, peer pressure is definitely there, so he heads out doubling the speed limit, drag racing light to light (poorly I might add), and doing 140mph passes on the interstate.

Meh. Another generalization that assumes the worst of every new rider.

I was in this situation in a pack of six when I first started riding. The three of us who were newer decided to hang back while the experienced riders pushed the envelope up ahead of us. There was no drag racing light to light; we stayed in formation while in town. On the interstate, they'd race a few hundred yards past us and then slow down until we caught up. Rinse, repeat.

[RACER X]

Originally Posted by I_R1rider

I never had a throttle run away from me because I never allowed myself to believe that I needed to be anything other than careful with it, until I became familiar with it.
Nate

and i've had students wheelie 125's , when they're supposed to be emergency stopping.

[WickedAngel]

Originally Posted by RACER X

and i've had students wheelie 125's , when they're supposed to be emergency stopping.

That would more likely be explained by a lack of coordination and poor work with the clutch.

[Meltdown]

Originally Posted by I_R1rider

Might not the point also be made, that if he learned on a 250 one may learn to not respect the throttle? If a beginners bike is constantly forgiving, does not put any fear in you, then when one upgrades all they have learned is that being stupid never mattered..that he could be irresponsible with the throttle and get away with it.

In my case, I am not an irresponsible pusshead. Unless by sheer accident I mistreat my throttle, I have the fear of God in me that I need to ride according to my capabilities. This is a mental maturity. If I was on a 250, I may thrash it more because I know I can. But how does that "teach me" to respect a bikes power? I would think it makes people more complacent.

I never had a throttle run away from me because I never allowed myself to believe that I needed to be anything other than careful with it, until I became familiar with it.
Nate

Grabbing a handful of throttle is a typical noob mistake. They're leaving the corner and want to go faster.

On a 250 it may have upset the balance of the bike a little bit but it wouldn't have yanked the front tire off the ground. The wiggle that he would have probably experienced on a 250 would have served as a training tool NOT to do that. What would have been a small mistake on a 250 turned into painful roadrash and a destroyed 600cc motorcycle.

Originally Posted by bush

That's not my point. My point is that you can easily remove the possibility of mistakes being made on behalf of the rider by removing another mitigating factor: an overpowered bike.

You are correct. An entire class of factors can be eliminated by matching a motorcycle to the skill of a rider.

When I took my MSF class I already had 10 years of experience riding motorcycles. I was 28. The next youngest person in my class was 45...so maturity wasn't an issue there. All of us were riding Honda Rebel 250's. If the ONLY factor was maturity, why didn't they teach the class on Honda 919's? Because noobs WILL drop their bikes. Because noobs WILL make mistakes that are very unforgiving on a more powerful motorcycle.

I assisted with teaching an MSF class at a local Harley dealer and watched a 55 year old man wheelie a Buell Blast across the parking lot and crash. On a 250 that wouldn't have happened. Maturity is a factor...but not anywhere near as much of a factor as matching the proper bike to the rider.

Originally Posted by mikeinnc

Now we tear it up to the front of traffic...

You shouldn'd be "tearing anything up" on a public road.

Originally Posted by mikeinnc

What was your brother doing changing gears (2 to 1st or 1st to 2nd, very high torque gears) in a curve anyways. Thats a very easily avoidable mistake fixed by just reading the forums.

Because he didn't know any better...have you not been paying attention? In addition, on a 250 the crash wouldn't have happened. It had nothing to do with his maturity level (other than the lack of gear)..and everything to do with the kind of bike he was on.

Originally Posted by I_R1rider

Might not the point also be made, that if he learned on a 250 one may learn to not respect the throttle? If a beginners bike is constantly forgiving, does not put any fear in you, then when one upgrades all they have learned is that being stupid never mattered..that he could be irresponsible with the throttle and get away with it.

I see your point...but I'm not sure I agree with it.

It is certainly true that a 250 would be more forgiving to ham-fisted inputs than a 600...but after a year on one of those and being more accustomed to riding I believe that someone would be less likely to try those on a 600. They are going to be used to the sensations that the bike is giving them and will be able to respond better on a more powerful bike later.

I managed to lift the front tire off of the ground on my poor old CX500 once while accelerating into traffic. Something I never forgot. Taught me in a hurry to be SMOOOOOOTH with throttle inputs. This proved helpful later on when moving up to more powerful motorcycles.

Having said that, kudos to you for well reasoned response.

[UberGoober]

In order to better organize the New Riders' Forums, this thread is closed to further postings. If members see anything here they wish to discuss, please feel free to start a new thread on that specific issue.