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Is Stoner one of the greatest riders ever?

Is Casey Stoner one of the greatest GP riders ever?

29K views 274 replies 53 participants last post by  Max Deutch 
#1 ·
I took most of the info from the great article below...

CLICK HERE FOR ARTICLE

So let's talk facts...

--At age 25, he's already a premier class MotoGP champion
--he already has more premier class victories than legends Kenny Roberts, Barry Sheene, Freddie Spencer, Wayne Gardner, Wayne Rainey, and Kevin Schwantz
--he's only 4 victories shy of being even with 4 time GP champion Eddie Lawson
--the only other riders with more premier class victories are Lawson, Hailwood, Doohan, Agostini, and Rossi
--he has 27 premier class victories - Pedrosa and Lorenzo have 28 COMBINED
--he's s scored more victories during his time in MotoGP than Rossi has over that same span (27 to 26), while also notching up seven more pole positions than his nemesis (26 to 19)
--when he wins, it's typically by an extremely large margin

So, regardless of the abrasive persona, the public fights with Rossi, the constant claims of whining, the "it's the bike, not the rider" fodder, and other rumblings, you can't deny his numbers...The boy can ride, and is headed towards being one of the greatest riders the sport has ever seen...
 
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#100 ·
Fun with numbers. From the other thread -

Below are their last 6 seasons (through Indy) in the premier class.

Stoner '06-'11
Starts: 95
Wins: 30
Percentage: 31.5%
Championship seasons: 1 (most likely about to be 2)

Rossi: '06-'11
Starts: 96
Wins: 26
Percentage: 27%
Championship seasons: 2



Now, we can also look at Rossi and Doohan's most prolific GOAT-like six season spans, and compare them to Stoner's only six seasons so far, if we like.

Rossi: 2001-2006
Starts: 68
Wins: 56
Percentage: 82%
Championship seasons: 5/6

Doohan '94-'99
Starts: 73
Wins: 44
Percentage: 60%
Championship seasons: 5/6

Stoner '06-'11
Starts: 95
Wins: 30
Percentage: 31.5%
Championship seasons: 1/6







Agostini: 1967-1972
Starts: 59
Wins: 54
Percentage: 91.5% ('68-'72 -100%)
Championship seasons: 6/6

trivia - Ago finished 2nd several times, had a handful lower placed finishes and a few DNF's in his career, but he never finished in 3rd place, except for twice in his first season in the 350 class.
 
#103 · (Edited)
Fun with numbers. From the other thread -

Below are their last 6 seasons (through Indy) in the premier class.

Stoner '06-'11
Starts: 95
Wins: 30
Percentage: 31.5%
Championship seasons: 1 (most likely about to be 2)

Rossi: '06-'11
Starts: 96
Wins: 26
Percentage: 27%
Championship seasons: 2



Now, we can also look at Rossi and Doohan's most prolific GOAT-like six season spans, and compare them to Stoner's only six seasons so far, if we like.

Rossi: 2001-2006
Starts: 68
Wins: 56
Percentage: 82%
Championship seasons: 5/6

Doohan '94-'99
Starts: 73
Wins: 44
Percentage: 60%
Championship seasons: 5/6

Stoner '06-'11
Starts: 95
Wins: 30
Percentage: 31.5%
Championship seasons: 1/6

Agostini: 1967-1972
Starts: 59
Wins: 54
Percentage: 91.5% ('68-'72 -100%)
Championship seasons: 6/6

Or my personal favorite...

All classes

Rossi: 1996-2011 (Indy)
Starts: 253
Wins: 105
Percentage: 42%
Championships: 9/16

Stoner: 2001-2011 (Indy)
Starts: 156
Wins: 37
Percentage: 24%
Championships: 1/11 (Likely to be 2/11)

Agostini: 1964-1977
Starts: 194
Wins: 122
Percentage: 63%
Championships: 15/27

Doohan: 1989-1999
Starts: 137
Wins: 54
Percentage: 39%
Championships: 5/11

Hailwood: 1958-1967
Starts: 123
Wins: 60
Percentage: 49%
Championships: 9/33

Roberts: 1974-1983
Starts: 60
Wins: 24
Percentage: 40%
Championships: 3/8

To me that speaks about the consistent skill of the rider.

And this is just freaking amazing:

Agostini: 1967-1972
Starts: 59
Wins: 54
Percentage: 91.5% ('68-'72 -100%)
Championship seasons: 6/6
 
#104 · (Edited)
lol at all the Stoner haters, you guys have nuthin'.

Firstly no one here claims he is the best ever, but he is the best of the current 800cc era (2007-2011)

Fact of the matter is that he is leading the World Chamiponship by 44 points and will more than likely get his 2nd Championship this year (hopefully at Phillip Island).

He has dominated this year with 7 wins, been on the podium in every other race , except Jerez (thanks Rossi) and even on Ducati was always at the pointy end of the field, unlike that other impostor.

30 race wins and counting from 2007.

Come on Max Deutch post up some more useless stats, maybe you can find some stats from when he didn't win when he was racing as a child hahahaha
 
#105 ·
#110 ·
I will say this and I had no idea previous to these conversations as I am somewhat new to the game.... But Seeing how dominant Ago was, how can anyone say Rossi is the GOAT ? Percentages to me are the end all be all when it comes to these discussions and as far as anyone really beating what that man did, I don't for see that happening any time soon if ever... Percentage wise that is..
 
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#113 ·
Conditions and competition do play a factor. Not to downplay Ago, but he was racing in a period when there was very little competition for the MV Agusta team. The British and the other Italian factories had reduced or elinimated their efforts, and the Japanese firms had not yet become serious contenders in the upper racing classes. Rossi has had to contend with much more serious competition throughout his career, and Stoner even more so.

I would tend to say that the GOAT is either Ago or Rossi, and it's hard to say which. If Rossi's winnings do turn out to be pretty much over right now, then I'd still say Ago; if Rossi turns out to have a couple more championships in him, I'd go with him. Stoner rides really really well, but he's got a lot of work to do before he in in contention for *the* GOAT.

Note that I did vote "yes" for him as "one of the greatest ever" in this thread, and explained my reasoning.

PhilB
 
#119 ·
Anyway they don't mean shit because both riders are at different stages of their careers.
Rossi has the better record but Casey is currently the better rider.
Let's do this again when Casey is 32 to get a better, more correct appraisal of each rider.

For the record I have never said that Casey is the greatest ever, just the best currently.
 
#121 ·
Here are the words of Vittoriano Guareschi (Ducati team manager and Test rider) In Issue # 127 of GPWeek.

In the above issue they have an interview with Vito, the interview can be accessed here: GP Week

Q: Working first with Casey and now Valentino Rossi, how do you compare them?

A: Vale is 9 times World Champion, has a lot of experience and for Vale it is important to improve the machine, to make a result. He works a lot with the machine, the team and the group.
Casey has fantastic control especially in the throttle, The hand and the engine is the same part for Casey - this is a big talent. But maybe he is young, needs more experience.
You can say Vale is like a professor. And Casey .... not a normal student, a top student. No: he is a genius!
 
#123 ·
Now allow me to pick the words I want to bold...
"Casey has fantastic control especially in the throttle, The hand and the engine is the same part for Casey - this is a big talent. But maybe he is young, needs more experience."
 
#122 ·
Nobody said Stoner is dog shit. He is good. Most of us just don't think he is better then Rossi at the same point of their respective carears. Right now Stoner is much younger and hasn't the wear and tear Rossi has and is on a better bike. When you take the fact Rossi dominated on 3 different style GP bikes, it means something. That's all. Smile and enjoy his run. In 8 years it will be fun to look back and compare the numbers. The 800 is the easiest bike to ride so far, so I would have like to see Stoner on a 500 2 stroke to get an idea of his pure talent.
 
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#124 · (Edited)
The 800 is the easiest bike to ride so far, so I would have like to see Stoner on a 500 2 stroke to get an idea of his pure talent.
Why does everyone keep saying this ? With out riding them how can you know? Even if it is true, everyone is using it. Your either faster and winning or your not... These are professional riders. They have all had to race on different bikes and make changes.. Not to discount what your saying but I really don't think it would make much difference...
Plus Casey does seem to have the best throttle control, which may even make the 500 more his thing... Too bad he wasn't around then, I'm sure it would have been some great racing to watch... There will be great racing to watch once again in the future once the Ducati gets sorted out...
 
#141 ·
The Honda is definitely a factor, but it's always a combination of man and machine that wins races and championships. It's too bad so many people on this site can't appreciate his riding because of his personality. I'd love for him to go on and win a bunch of titles for Honda just to shut up the people that think the only reason he will (probably) win the titlle this year is the bike. There are also 3 other people on the bike and he has consistently outpaced all of them this year.
 
#146 ·
This is clearly a topic that carries with it an element of controversy and I've tried to think carefully about it before writing anything. I'm not sure if I would say he's one of the greatest at this precise moment but he is undoubtedly on his way to being there. I admit he isn't the flambouyant and engaging personality that Rossi is but I really don't mind him at all. I certainly prefer him to that lollipop sucking loon Lorenzo but that's irrelevant to his riding skills.

You can surely only judge a rider on the era he competes in. Are Schumacher and Senna less worthy champions because they competed in a more technological era than Fangio? I don't think so. Is Senna a worse driver than Schumacher because he won fewer championships and wouldn't have done so even if he hadn't tragically died? Again, I don't think so. Each competed against the best talent of that era and dominated. For the record, to me, Senna is the greatest Formula 1 driver.

So Stoner hasn't won on a 500cc bike. I don't care at all. That's like saying that there will never be another really great rider because nobody else will ever have a 500cc bike to race. The fact is that in this era, Stoner is proving himself to be a fantastically talented rider and deserves respect for that. He's had some very talented riders in teams with him like Caparossi, Hayden and Pedrosa but none of them have been able to live with his speed and though it pains me to say it, I suspect that if Stoner and Rossi were together at Ducati now, it would be Stoner who would have accumulated more points. Don't get me wrong, I much prefer Rossi and I think he's far more of the 'complete package' than Stoner but I think Stoner has a remarkable talent for extracting fantastic performance from a bike when it is far from perfect. Rossi can engineer a bike like no other and we saw that when he moved to Yamaha and I'm sure, given time, he can do it again at Ducati but Stoner doesn't seem to bother with that. He just rides the arse off whatever he's given. I don't think Stoner will ever be the complete package Rossi is but he's still a bloody good rider and a remarkable talent. Those 500cc bikes may well have been hard to ride but so was his Ducati. It was so hard to ride that no other rider has even come close to taming it in the way that Stoner did and that includes Rossi who did win on a 500cc bike.

The greatest ever? No. For me that can never be because for me, that will always be Rossi. I am a huge Rossi fan and he will always be the greatest and the most complete rider but I do think that Stoner is well on the way to being one of the best. He's already won the title once, he'll win it again this year and, assuming he retains his rather fragile health, I think he'll do so at least once more after that and quite possibly more so in my opinion he will end up as ONE of the greats but never the greatest.
 
#149 ·
Is he ONE of the greatest GP riders ever? He certainly is. These are the only riders to have ever won a top tier GP championship since 1949. This is all of them. 25 people. Only 9 have won more than twice.

500/MotoGP Championships -

Agostini, 8 (15 total)
Rossi, 7 (9 total)
Doohan, 5
Hailwood, 4
Duke, 4
Lawson, 4
Surtees, 4
Roberts, 3
Rainey, 3
Stoner, 2
Spencer, 2
Sheene, 2
Masetti, 2
Read, 2
Hayden, 1
Lucchinelli, 1
Liberati, 1
Schwantz, 1
Uncini, 1
Gardner, 1
Graham, 1
Roberts, Jr., 1
Lorenzo, 1
Hocking, 1
Crivillé, 1

500/MotoGP race winners - All of them since 1949.

79 Rossi, Valentino ITALY (105 total)
68 Agostini, Giacomo ITALY (122 total)
54 Doohan, Mick AUSTRALIA
37 Hailwood, Mike GREAT BRITAIN
32 Stoner, Casey AUSTRALIA (39 total)
31 Lawson, Eddie UNITED STATES
25 Schwantz, Kevin UNITED STATES
24 Rainey, Wayne UNITED STATES
22 Surtees, John GREAT BRITAIN
22 Roberts, Kenny UNITED STATES
22 Duke, Geoff GREAT BRITAIN
20 Spencer, Freddie UNITED STATES
19 Sheene, Barry GREAT BRITAIN
18 Gardner, Wayne AUSTRALIA
17 Lorenzo, Jorge SPAIN
15 Criville, Alex SPAIN
15 Pedrosa, Dani SPAIN
13 Mamola, Randy UNITED STATES
13 Biaggi, Max ITALY
11 Read, Phil GREAT BRITAIN
9 Gibernau, Sete SPAIN
9 Capirossi, Loris ITALY
8 Roberts Jr, Kenny UNITED STATES
8 Cadalora, Luca ITALY
8 Hocking, Gary RHODESIA
7 Barros, Alex BRAZIL
6 Masetti, Umberto ITALY
6 Lucchinelli, Marco ITALY
5 Graham, Leslie GREAT BRITAIN
5 Uncini, Franco ITALY
5 Melandri, Marco ITALY
5 Hartog, Wil NETHERLANDS
4 Kocinski, John UNITED STATES
4 Armstrong, Reg IRELAND
4 Okada, Tadayuki JAPAN
4 Liberati, Libero ITALY
3 Hartle, John GREAT BRITAIN
3 Pagani, Alberto ITALY
3 Hennen, Pat UNITED STATES
3 Beattie, Daryl AUSTRALIA
3 Hayden, Nicky UNITED STATES
3 Mccoy, Garry AUSTRALIA
3 Milani, Alfredo ITALY
3 Findlay, Jack AUSTRALIA
3 Cecotto, Johnny VENEZUELA
3 Abe, Norick JAPAN
2 Tamada, Makoto JAPAN
2 Pagani, Nello ITALY
2 Saarinen, Jarno FINLAND
2 Ferrari, Virginio ITALY
2 Anderson, Fergus GREAT BRITAIN
2 Redman, Jim RHODESIA
2 Middelburg, Jack NETHERLANDS
2 Amm, Ray RHODESIA
2 Checa, Carlos SPAIN
1 Carpenter, Phil GREAT BRITAIN
1 Williams, John GREAT BRITAIN
1 Magee, Kevin AUSTRALIA
1 Puig, Alberto SPAIN
1 Brett, Jack GREAT BRITAIN
1 Caldarella, Benedicto ARGENTINA
1 Lansivuori, Teuvo FINLAND
1 Ireland, Dennis NEW ZEALAND
1 Sarron, Christian FRANCE
1 Elias, Toni SPAIN
1 Doran, William GREAT BRITAIN
1 Shepherd, Alan GREAT BRITAIN
1 Nash, Godfrey GREAT BRITAIN
1 Newcombe, Kim NEW ZEALAND
1 Newbold, John GREAT BRITAIN
1 Van Dulmen, Boet NETHERLANDS
1 Katayama, Takazumi JAPAN
1 Vermeulen, Chris AUSTRALIA
1 Mccandless, Cromie IRELAND
1 Lomas, Bill GREAT BRITAIN
1 Kissling, Jorge ARGENTINA
1 Stastny, Franta CZECHOSLOVAKIA
1 Kanaya, Hideo JAPAN
1 Frutschi, Michel SWITZERLAND
1 Crafar, Simon NEW ZEALAND
1 Colnago, Giuseppe ITALY
1 Mortimer, Chas GREAT BRITAIN
1 Grant, Mike GREAT BRITAIN
1 Spies, Ben UNITED STATES
1 Ukawa, Tohru JAPAN
1 Monneret, Pierre FRANCE
1 Creith, R. IRELAND
1 Dovizioso, Andrea ITALY
1 Laconi, Regis FRANCE
1 Dale, Dickie GREAT BRITAIN
1 Venturi, Remo ITALY
1 Simmonds, Dave GREAT BRITAIN
1 Czihak, Edmund GERMANY
1 Bayliss, Troy AUSTRALIA
1 Mcintyre, Bob GREAT BRITAIN
1 Bonera, Gianfranco ITALY
1 Herron, Tom IRELAND
1 Chili, Pierfrancesco ITALY
1 Daniell, Harold GREAT BRITAIN
1 Kavanagh, Ken AUSTRALIA
1 Ahearn, Jack AUSTRALIA
1 Bergamonti, Angelo ITALY


Casey Stoner -

Starts 99
Wins 32
Podiums 58
Poles 33
Fastest laps 27
 
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