well.... it finally happened.....

[19psi]

yup, i went down. just got my new dunlop sportmaxx's on last weekend but hadn't had a chance to ride until today.... evidently they're not as sticky at 38* as my old shinko ultra softs. (duh, should have thought of that). turning out of my apt. complex onto the main road, same as always, suddenly i think "oh shit, i'm leaning too far, but why, oh shit......". luckily i was only going maybe 12-15mph and my light was green so traffic was stopped on the main road. skidded on my kneee across the road about 8 feet.
i was wearing all the gear though, so i'm scratch free! fieldsheer pants with knee armos are shredded but still intact, teknic boots are scuffed but still good, agv gloves are scuffed but good still.
bike is all scratched up ion teh right side, nothing broken though.
i picked it up and started it, and continued on to work.

so i learned that my new tires aren't as good when cold as my old tires.

[MJ939]

Good to hear that you are OK, and thumbs up for wearing gear.

It may not have been only a temperature effect. Someone who knows a bit more can comment on the exact reasons (oils/smoothness?), but new tires need to be broken in for a while before they'll grip well, even if they're warm.

[novcadetshotz]

Your new tires will perform pretty much on-par in the cold as your old tires. Sounds to me like they hadn't been scrubbed in yet and the cold combined with that nasty, slippery as hell protectant took you down.

Sucks that you went down man; hope the damage isn't too bad. It adds character!

One trick that I've seen done, but never done myself is to take a stiff-bristled wire brush and physically "scrub" the tire a little bit to get that nastiness off. Usually I just take it slow and "rock" the bike at lower speeds to wipe off the ickiness.

[19psi]

you know, it may be because of that new "coating" on the tires that cuased it. they are still very "slick" and hard feeling on the outer edges. i've never had new tires before, always bought used or the bike came with good tires already so thsi is my first experience with brand new tires.

[travisj]

Glad to hear you're ok man, new tires can get ya. I just got mine last weekend and I'm still taking it easy on them, even with a little over 200 miles on em.

[newbsauce]

I went throught the exact same thing you did a little over a week ago man.

Supposedly, new tires have this junk on them that makes them easy to release from the mold, which in turn makes it dangerous for us if your not careful with them. I expected a little too much from mine the first time I was out with them, and I lowsided at about 5-10mph. It's not fun. Glad you and the bike are okay.

Originally Posted by novcadetshotz

One trick that I've seen done, but never done myself is to take a stiff-bristled wire brush and physically "scrub" the tire a little bit to get that nastiness off. Usually I just take it slow and "rock" the bike at lower speeds to wipe off the ickiness.

Is that even possible to scrape all that junk off?

[RayOSV]

New tires are slick until scrubbed in. With new tires, gradually increase lean angle to your max over the first 50-100 miles.

[bettner12]

brake and parts cleaner and a scotchbrite pad
brake cleaner cuts the icky and the scotchbrite roughens up the surface

[inpayne]

Originally Posted by novcadetshotz

Your new tires will perform pretty much on-par in the cold as your old tires. Sounds to me like they hadn't been scrubbed in yet and the cold combined with that nasty, slippery as hell protectant took you down.

Sucks that you went down man; hope the damage isn't too bad. It adds character!

One trick that I've seen done, but never done myself is to take a stiff-bristled wire brush and physically "scrub" the tire a little bit to get that nastiness off. Usually I just take it slow and "rock" the bike at lower speeds to wipe off the ickiness.

^ and brake cleaner and scotchbrite pad? come on really?
we all went over this in the last tire thread.

There is NO release compound on the tires.
and they don't need to be scrubbed in.

only warmed up.

anybody that physically scrubs their tires with a wire brush is doing absolutely nothing, and wasting their time.
How To Properly Warm Up Your Tires - Sport Rider Magazine

Few aspects of riding technique are as clouded with the dark specter of myths, old information-or just plain bad information-than how to warm up new tires. In fact, many of us, me included, still use the misleading terminology of "scrubbing" in new tires, which wrongly implies that the surface of the tire itself needs to be scrubbed or abraded to offer traction. While this may have been the case long ago when manufacturers used a mold release compound, it most definitely is not the case today.

To clear up the issue of how to ride on new tires, we cornered Cristoph Knoche, the Racing Manager for Pirelli Tire North America's Motorcycle Division. Knoche has been with Pirelli for 13 years, working with the company's R&D department while involved with World Supersport, where Pirelli won the World Championship with Fabien Foret while battling against the other brands prior to the series adopting Pirelli as the spec tire for World Supersport and World Superbike. More than just a racetrack technician, Knoche also has first-hand experience with the prototyping process and development of special racing tires.

First off, Knoche quickly dispatched the old wives' tale that the surface of the tire needs to be scuffed or roughed up to offer grip. "Maybe it's coming from the old days when people were spraying mold release on the tread when the molds were maybe not that precise," Knoche speculates, "and the machinery was not that precise. But nowadays molds are typically coated with Teflon or other surface treatments. The release you put in there (in the sidewall area only, not the tread) is for like baking a cake, you know, so that it fills all the little corners and today that is done more mechanically than by spraying. The sidewall is important because you have all the engraving in the sidewall [with tire size, inflation pressure and certifications] and that you want to look nicely on your tire, so that's why we still spray the mold release there."

Riding Skills Series Stanboli Knoche And Davis
Knoche discusses tires with Attack Kawasaki's Chaz Davis (right) and Richard Stanboli.

The next myth we see perpetuated nearly every time we watch the warm-up lap to a race. Riders begin weaving back and forth in apparent attempt to scuff the tread surface (which we've already discounted) and generate heat. The reality is that, according to every tire engineer that I've asked, there are far more effective ways of generating heat in a tire that are also much safer. Rather than weaving back and forth-which does little in the way of generating heat but does put you at risk asking for cornering grip from tires before they're up to temperature-you're far better off using strong acceleration and braking forces, and using them while upright, not leaned over! Acceleration and braking forces impart far more flex to the tire carcass, which is what generates the heat that then transfers to the tread compound as well (you often see Formula 1 cars weaving violently back and forth because automobile tires operate on a horizontal plane, so they have and use significant sidewall flex to generate heat).

All I can say is that you should trust the educated opinion of tire engineers over the old habits and superstitions of even the best racers. That said, I still-out of habit-occasionally catch myself weaving out of the pits on fresh rubber before chastising myself and then applying heavy yet smooth acceleration and braking forces into the tire while keeping the bike relatively upright.

If you're a racer, or a serious enough track-day rider to have tire warmers, Knoche recommends that you have them on the bike for a full hour to get not only the tread surface of the tire, but also the entire carcass and sidewall section, up to temperature as well. "With modern compounds," Knoche explains, "there are a lot of waxes and oils and (we) have to get them really to temperature. We suggest to get them up to around 165 degrees Fahrenheit. Because what happens is you have to warm your tire not only on the surface but what we look for is touching the wheel and you want that a little bit more than hand warm."

In addition to warming tires up before the session, Knoche also recommends that riders coming off the track get the warmers back on to prevent the tires from cooling and going through another heat cycle. "Even with the tire on the warmer all the time," warns Knoche, "it takes about two laps to get to the good compound underneath, a little bit."

It should be noted, as well, that unlike many tire brands that give suggested cold tire pressures, Pirelli prefers to set tire pressures after the tire is up to temperature (165 degrees F on a warmer or after 10 minutes of lapping the track). Knoche says that pressures vary slightly depending on track conditions and rider preference but that the Pirelli engineers prefer to run from 32 to 34 psi in the front and from 28 to 30 psi rear. They like to see between a 3 to five pound rise in pressure from the initial cold tire to one at 165 degrees or above.

It might follow that suggested cold tire pressures would start 3 psi below the pressure listed above, but Knoche wasn't comfortable making that suggestion. Instead, he recommends, as many tire engineers do, that riders, "contact our technical support people."

Many years ago I recall a coworker at Motorcyclist magazine telling me that it could take as much as 100 miles for a tire to truly break in and offer good traction. I doubted that it was true then and it certainly isn't true today. Knoche reaffirms that there's no need to believe that old myth that often left typical street riders riding away from the dealership on new tires literally white-knuckled with fear of the "treacherously slippery" tires.

"I would say nowadays if the surface looks like new-as long as you don't have contact cleaner on, no soapy water (often used by tire fitters to help slip the bead over the rim) or oil-there should be no concern," said Knoche. But that isn't clearance to simply go for it, either. "For sure a new tire, especially if you change the brand or even get a different production lot, it can be slightly different," Knoche said. "So I think that's more the concern people should have. Maybe with a new set of tires that's a new experience. Get the experience; it's like riding in a brand new car, you don't race around the first corner because you don't know what's going to happen."

Finally, there is the aspect of using race tires on the street. Interestingly, Knoche says Pirelli's street and DOT race tires should come up to temperature equally quickly and at no time does the race compound offer less traction than that of the street tire. However, this is not a statement that we feel can be safely applied to all brands of tires, as we've heard differently from tire engineers (not marketing managers) from other companies regarding their specific brand. Regardless, there are plenty of other reasons not to run modern DOT race tires on the street, not the least of which is tread life that can be as short as 300 miles of aggressive riding! That's a cost of well over $1.00 per mile. Such are the compromises required to run at the front of the pack in AMA Pro Racing competition.

"That's why we developed the Diablo Corsa III," said Knoche. " This tire has, in the rear, three compound sections. The center is a street compound but on the side you have about one and half inch, probably, of our race compound, which gives you a little bit more fun." Take a look at any competitive DOT race tire and you'll note the scarcity of tread grooves in general and the total lack of them anywhere near the edge, or shoulder, of the tread. Even for track day riders that may face damp or wet riding conditions without the luxury of a spare set of wheels with wet weather tires mounted up, Knoche recommends the equivalent of Pirelli Diablo Corse IIIs, "so that we don't have to change to intermediate or rain tires because they're designed for the street.

For more riding tips, visit Motorcycle Riding Tips, Safety Training & Racing Techniques at Sport Rider

[novcadetshotz]

Like I said .. I've heard of the wire brush thing, but never put much stock in it or tried it myself.

All of the tires I've broken in have been worn in at a good pace, taking care not to push them too hard until they've been a little mucked. Hasn't killed me in the last 50,000m.

The last set of battleaxes I put on absolutely had a slimey feel to them. Oily to the point where I could rub my fingertips on the tire, then rub my fingers together and feel it. Whatever the hell it was (a protectant I assume, since it's not uncommon for a tire not to be bought and used until months / years after it's made; and no one's going to buy dry-rotted tires.)

I didn't say anything about a breakaway compound. I'm pretty sure the first thing I mentioned was along the lines of the new tires will perform just the same as the old ... just not "out of the box" and cold as hell.

[ssrallyred]

Warm up new tires..nuff said.

[LobsterMagnet]

Glad you're ok man. At least you didn't figure it out on an overpass.

[inpayne]

if he was on a overpass, his tires would have some heat in them, and would have probably been fine.

some tires just have less traction cold.

[636blurr]

Originally Posted by 19psi

you know, it may be because of that new "coating" on the tires that cuased it. they are still very "slick" and hard feeling on the outer edges. i've never had new tires before, always bought used or the bike came with good tires already so thsi is my first experience with brand new tires.

Myth on the new tire coating that is debunked here How To Properly Warm Up Your Tires - Sport Rider Magazine


who knows what happend, maybe you leaned a bit and did not give it enough gas, maybe you found some black ice not thawed yet, maybe some oil on the road.

Important thing is that you R ok and life goes on.

Get some dirt experience will help when your rear tire slips out on ya.

Edit I see payne covered it I should have read farther, and nova, IM disapointed man you were in this thread where I first brought forth this article Im calling your school and telling them you deserve a D for lack of reading.

[ZxHunteR]

It has a lot more to do with throttle control than it does lean angle.

Bad squid. No more hamfisting.