Do i need power commander?

[Parabellum]

I am skeptical of the idea that Yamaha tunes their bikes rich.

I know for a fact that their VTwins run lean from the factory...for emissions reasons. One of the first thing that Warrior owners commonly do is to go into the diagnostic mode in the dash and tune each cylinder to be a little richer.

So....can anyone actually substantiate the claim that Yami is tuning bikes rich? Because of the effects of a rich mixture on emissions output...I HIGHLY doubt this is the case.

I will now await proof. Either a Yamaha Tech Bulletin or a Dyno run with A/F on a stock yamaha would be proof enough.

[CrazyBiker]

Originally Posted by Parabellum

I am skeptical of the idea that Yamaha tunes their bikes rich.

I know for a fact that their VTwins run lean from the factory...for emissions reasons. One of the first thing that Warrior owners commonly do is to go into the diagnostic mode in the dash and tune each cylinder to be a little richer.

So....can anyone actually substantiate the claim that Yami is tuning bikes rich? Because of the effects of a rich mixture on emissions output...I HIGHLY doubt this is the case.

I will now await proof. Either a Yamaha Tech Bulletin or a Dyno run with A/F on a stock yamaha would be proof enough.

Does the FZ6 have this diagnostic mode?

[Parabellum]

Originally Posted by CrazyBiker

Does the FZ6 have this diagnostic mode?

Not to my knowledge.

The Diag mode on the Warrior is freaking insanely cool. You could monitor all sorts of information about engine timing, tempartures, all the FI info....it was SICK. And the ability to change the A/F mixture on each cylinder individually was GENIUS (often the front cylinder of a V Twin will run leaner than the rear one due to it getting better cooling).

I remember, even the mechs at my dealer didn't know about this. I told them that I wouldn't need a PCIII with my exhaust, and they told me I was wrong. I proceeded to roll my bike into the shop and gave them a tour of the diagnostic mode...all of them were blown away and wanted to know how it was possible that I knew more about the bike than they did.

I didn't tell them that the real reason was they are all halfwit knuckle draggers who don't have two clues to rub together to make a spark.

[metalrat]

My 2006 FZ6 was running slightly lean after modding the airbox and gutting the cat.
I pulled the plugs after 3k miles and they had traces of white on the elements.

(black = rich, brown = perfect, white= lean)

I believe the factory runs them a little lean for MPG and emissions.
The PCIII is a handy gizmo and gives the user some flexibility in fuel/air ratio's.
Is it needed? No.
If you get one, is a custom map needed? No.

The map I currently run gives me very solid mid range.
I prefer this because the bike does not SUDDENLY hit the powerband in mid corner.
Just smooth predictable power across a wide rpm range.

I would like to add the module that lets me switch maps on the fly.
One map for peak power.
Another map for mid range.
Then a map for MPG.

[Hellgate]

Originally Posted by VDub90

I'm just curious as other people have stated it. But is this fact that Yamaha does indeed program the bike on the rich side so people can modify the bike? Or is this just internet legend passed on from thread to thread. I'd like to see the actual Yamaha documents saying "We purposely made the FZ6 run rich for all you tuners."

I just went and read the warranty info on the bikes, even if these internet claims that Yamaha has built into the feuling the ability to compensate for aftermarket exhaust. If your bike breaks because of it don't go crying to Yamaha.

directly from the Yamaha warranty pdf.

3. This warranty does not extend to:
a) MOTORCYCLES which have been modified
in any way from the standard specifications
as shown in the Owner's Manual, including
any MOTORCYCLE whose odometer has
been altered;


b) Use of lubricants, oils and fuel/oil mixtures
other than those recommended in the
Owner's Manual, improperly installed
accessories and use of parts or accessories
that are not equivalent in design and quality
to genuine Yamaha parts;


This is strictly from a Warranty stand point. I'd still like to see some Official Yamaha words that the stock fuel is set up for aftermarket parts.

It is fact that the FZ6 is programmed fat. A week ago I had a dyno tune session done and custom map develop for my 07 by AF1.

This was done on an Eddy Current dyno which reads lower than a Dyno Jet dyno so yes the total hp looks lower, it all for relative comparison anyway.

1) The top graph is hp, the base line was done with a PC3 with the Akrapovic map, DB Killers out. The highest rating is with the custom map, gain of about 6 to 8 hp.

2) the middle graph is torque

3) the bottom graph is hydrocarbon, the more the fatter the setting. Note that with the custom map there a half as may hydrocarbons, this related to the relative richness of the bike. It is much leaner and after tuning. AF1 state that this bike is the cleanest FI biek they have ever tuned. The exhaust coming out is actually cleaner than the air going into the bike.

The tuning dude stated that pretty much all MFGs set their bike up to run rich. The goal is to get the bike out of the warrenty period without having to buy the customer a new motor. They anticipate that many owners will add a pipe and a filter update and lean the bike, so they make it fat.

The tech said that on the 1098s the mileage will go from 26 to 28 stock to 36+ after they make a custom map.

The bike runs great, much better mid-range and much, much better throttle response.

[Parabellum]

^ Good data, but we really need the A/F ratio....hydrocarbon readings could be higher for a number of reasons including a bad cat, old plugs, etc....

I am still VERY skeptical of the notion of bikes coming rich from the factory with today's emission standards.

[Hellgate]

Originally Posted by Parabellum

^ Good data, but we really need the A/F ratio....hydrocarbon readings could be higher for a number of reasons including a bad cat, old plugs, etc....

I am still VERY skeptical of the notion of bikes coming rich from the factory with today's emission standards.

AF1 uses 4 Gas EGA not Air/Fuel ratio. The 4 Gas give a truer view on how the engine is running than afr. AFR was good 15 - 20 years ago but technology has changed and more and more shops are now using 4-GAS instead.

It gets WAY above my pay grade, but here's the Eddy Current MFGs wed site. Lots of good stuff on 4 Gas vs. AFR. The guy who tuned my bike doesn't care for the AFR at all. He has taken many bikes tuned using the AFR method, retuned them using 4 GAS and gotten much better results, hp, torque, emissions and gas mileage.

What confirms the richness is the improvement in the mileage of the bikes once tuned. Almost ALL go up a significant amount after tuning.

Factory Pro: Producers of the EC997 Low Inertia Eddy Current Dynamometer Series and Quality MC performance products

wideband o2 sensor vs 4 gas EGA tuning

AF1 Racing - Aprilia Sales, Parts, Service, Racing, and Dyno Tuning - New Braunfels, TX - Call 877.626.3966

[Parabellum]

Originally Posted by Hellgate

AF1 uses 4 Gas EGA on Air/Fuel ratio. The 4 Gas give a truer view on how the engine is running than afr. AFR was good 15 - 20 years ago but technology has changed and more and more shops are now using 4-GAS instead.

It gets WAY above my pay grade, but here's the Eddy Current MFGs wed site. Lots of good stuff on 4 Gas vs. AFR. The guy who tuned my bike doesn't care for the AFR at all. He has taken many bikes tuned using the AFR method, retuned them using 4 GAS and gotten much better results, hp, torque, emissions and gas mileage.

What confirms the richness is the improvement in the mileage of the bikes once tuned. Almost ALL go up a significant amount after tuning.

Factory Pro: Producers of the EC997 Low Inertia Eddy Current Dynamometer Series and Quality MC performance products

wideband o2 sensor vs 4 gas EGA tuning

AF1 Racing - Aprilia Sales, Parts, Service, Racing, and Dyno Tuning - New Braunfels, TX - Call 877.626.3966

Wow, now I have a lot to read!

Thanks!

I agree that if you retune a bike and it gets WAY better gas mileage, its very reasonable to say that it was probably running rich.

So, assuming you are correct and I am wrong....how the heck are these companies passing factory emissions while running so rich?

[Hellgate]

Originally Posted by Parabellum

Wow, now I have a lot to read!

Thanks!

I agree that if you retune a bike and it gets WAY better gas mileage, its very reasonable to say that it was probably running rich.

So, assuming you are correct and I am wrong....how the heck are these companies passing factory emissions while running so rich?

I asked that exact same question too. Its because the CATs are so damn good these days. My CO was at 0.0% to 0.1%, my hydrocarbons were 30 to 40 parts per MILLION!!! This thing is clean. The tuner couldn't believe it, this is the cleanest/greenest FI bike they have ever tuned. His been in the business for 20 years and was very impressed. In addition to the dyno tune he rides the bike for 65 to 75 miles, slab, stop and go, twisties with 2 to 3 overnight cold starts to make sure the real world matches what the dyno is telling him. He really liked the FZ and was very impressed at how powerful the top end is. And this is from a guy who rides an '02 R1.

I'm very happy with the tune and would recommend it.

[Parabellum]

Originally Posted by Hellgate

I asked that exact same question too. Its because the CATs are so damn good these days. My CO was at 0.0% to 0.1%, my hydrocarbons were 30 to 40 parts per MILLION!!! This thing is clean. The tuner couldn't believe it, this is the cleanest/greenest FI bike they have ever tuned. His been in the business for 20 years and was very impressed. In addition to the dyno tune he rides the bike for 65 to 75 miles, slab, stop and go, twisties with 2 to 3 overnight cold starts to make sure the real world matches what the dyno is telling him. I really liked the FZ and was very impressed at how powerful the top end is. And this is from a guy who rides an '02 R1.

I'm very happy with the tune and would recommend it.

Wow yeah...those are low numbers...amazing.

Mine is an 07 and if I am not mistaken, it appears to have TWO cats...one underneath and one between the first and the junction to the muffler.

[Hellgate]

Originally Posted by Parabellum

Wow yeah...those are low numbers...amazing.

Mine is an 07 and if I am not mistaken, it appears to have TWO cats...one underneath and one between the first and the junction to the muffler.

Three, two in the header and then the CAT pipe, that is for the 07 and 08, dunno about the 04 to 06.

So back on thread, do you need a PC3, no, are they nice to have and make a difference with a custom map??? Hell YES!

[VDub90]

Well thanks for actually posting useful data.

[Hellgate]

Originally Posted by VDub90

Well thanks for actually posting useful data.

You are welcome!

[frank80]

Originally Posted by Parabellum

Simply not true....at the least, its VERY misleading how it was said above.

A reduction in backpressure will lean out the engine a LITTLE...but its a MUCH bigger issue on Vtwins (that NEED more backpressure) than I4s.

The FZ6 exhaust is about 5 feet of tubing, containing multiple bends and TWO catalytic converters (on the 07+ models anyway).

Changing out the muffler, hell....REMOVING the muffler is NOT going to cause the engine to lean out to any measurable degree on this bike.

Ride my bike with the Scorpion system with cat-elim. and stock air filter and tell me these things run rich from the factory with a straight face.

I spend most of my riding time between 2k and 6k. These bikes come from the factory lean like every other production bike.