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Old 03-23-2010, 11:51 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riverszzr View Post
You guys "claiming" to have bikes that have not needed valve adjustments. You must have some very special bikes. I adjust valves on about 300 bikes a year, and have never found a bike (regardless of mileage or brand) that has not needed them adjusted.
Alrighty then..... I guess I am one of those guys "claiming" to have not needed valve adjustments. I have checked valve clearances on other bikes I have owned (and all others required adjustment).


Quote:
Originally Posted by riverszzr View Post
Of course if you are just checking them and saying "they are within spec" well that is a very loose interpretation of what the clearances really are. any moron can shove a .010" feeler guage in between a cam lobe and bucket that really only has .004" clearance, or say a .006" feeler guage is the right size for something with .008" clearance......its all about experience and feel, and having good quality tools always helps !!
I hope I am not one of those morons. I just use my feeler gauges to check the valve clearance. Sure, it can require a little bit of the right feel I guess. I have not been able to fit a .010 feeler gauge in a .004 gap as you say. That must require a little forcing to do that. Perhaps you can elaborate more on how using the feeler gauge to check can result in a "very loose interpretation".


Quote:
Originally Posted by riverszzr View Post
Both, my standard of what the clearances should be ( all of them within .0005" of each other , yes I said 5 ten thousands of an inch !!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by riverszzr View Post
I am so ANAL and picky I adjust them
Wow, that is really anal! I guess you are right then, by your standards my valves are way out of adjustment. Several of my valves differ by .001 on the same cylinder. That gap is as much as .002 then if you are looking across all 4 cylinders. But I am OK with that. The Yamaha specifications are for valve clearances to simply be within a given range. Nothing mentioned of no more then X amount of spread between.

I for one do not need to get every tiny little bit of performance possible out of my motor, so I don't feel that your kind of anal retentive valve maintenance would be of much use to me. I will sleep well at night knowing my valves are within the manufactures specs. And I expect to get many more miles out of my motor.
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Old 03-24-2010, 08:11 AM   #32 (permalink)
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I am such a nut for not cracking the cylinder head cover open on the FZ6 just to check the valves clearances. I just monitor the fuel consumption, any change in performance, feel changes in handling, note exhaust smell changes and listen to changes in sound and once in a while use a stethoscope.

My way of thinking is, if the vehicle is performing as it should be, it should not be messed with aside from regular maintenance, non-invasive regular inspections and preventive maintenance and measures all in accordance to usage severity.

Any bike other than the FZ6 that I have no previous experience or length of ownership thereof, I would be doing the valve clearances check.
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Old 03-24-2010, 08:25 AM   #33 (permalink)
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You actually made the point to what the general sentiment is for dealership repair and maintenance in this thread.

It's a crap shoot when you bring it in.

You don't know if you're gonna get Lloyd or a gorilla to work on your bike. LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by riverszzr View Post
Here is a quote from a post I made on this very conversion last fall, on this very forum.

"This is all my experience---what materials am I supposed to reference you to?
I am not about to pull out 30 years of tedious notes and thousands and thousands of valve clearance measurements, and waste my time trying to "educate" you to how things really are.
You can either believe me or not.
The last bike I just did yesterday---2004 Kaw 636 19,276 ( it isnt scheduled for valve adjustment til 26,000) and supposedly a local stealership had just done a "tune up" on this bike at 14,000 miles--- it came in because it ran no better after she picked it up than it did when she took it in to them. The TPS and throttle body sync were off--as well as many other things "they" didnt do.
intakes
.0035 .004 .0045 .0055 .0035 .004 .005 .004 ( spec--.0043-.0075)
exhuasts
.0010 .0085 .007 .0085 .0095 .006 .0065 .0075 (spec--.0087-.0122)

This is how it came in!!

A couple days ago I did a Triumph sprint 1050 (3 cylinder) 8645 miles ( It isnt scheduled for a valve adjustment til 12,000

intakes
.0035 .005 .007 .0055 .0045 .006
exhuasts
.0075 .0085 .009 .010 .0105 .008"


I feel like I am beating a dead horse on this subject though, believe me or not, I know what works and so do my customers.

Have a good day, lloyd
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Old 03-24-2010, 08:48 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott17 View Post
Setting valves to .0005 tolerances(giving you the benefit of the doubt that you can actually accomplish this...) is quite anal and definately not required for good maintainance. -Akin to picking flyshit out of pepper. You stock shims in .0005 increments??? Yamaha doesn't! You may think you're doing Gods work on an engine, but I can assure you the engine won't know! Just out of curiosity, how often do you suppose valves need adjustment( after you have adjusted them to all within .0005"??? Also, in your experienced opinion, why are the valve clearances moving( Seats sinking, seat wear, valve surface wear, mushrooming, stem tip wear, bucket wear, cam wear, shim wear)??? And another question that defies my logic: Why would you tote 13000 shims to and fro everyday???? Why not just leave them in your tool box?? Why not pick 60 or so and work with those? How are you measuring valve clearance accurately to .0005"???? How does an unmolested TPS get "off"? Just curious.....

Always remember: an ounce of perception is worth a pound of obscure...
lol, he doesn't tote all the shims around, they're at his shop! I will have to agree with Lloyd on all of this stuff, but I am also not nearly as anal as he is. But when it comes down to it, for your money you want a guy like him working on your bike, not the "good enough" guy who will be more likely to cut corners where it matters. If you've gotten to the point of exposing the cams and can exchange the shims as quickly as an experienced tech can do, why not put all your valves right in the middle of specs, where they should ideally be? Just food for thought.
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Old 03-24-2010, 10:15 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Here is some more food for thought. If that degree of percision is needed, to get the advertised HP/torque, don't you think the ENGINEERS at Yamaha would have speced such a setting, or at least narrowed the acceptable range?

Regarding Lloyd's happy customers, he not only adjusted their valves ge also synched the TBs/carbs. Synching by itself would make for a smoother running engine. Oh and the butt dyno is a very flawed device.
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Old 03-24-2010, 12:50 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lasermax View Post
lol, he doesn't tote all the shims around, they're at his shop! I will have to agree with Lloyd on all of this stuff, but I am also not nearly as anal as he is. But when it comes down to it, for your money you want a guy like him working on your bike, not the "good enough" guy who will be more likely to cut corners where it matters. If you've gotten to the point of exposing the cams and can exchange the shims as quickly as an experienced tech can do, why not put all your valves right in the middle of specs, where they should ideally be? Just food for thought.
Quote:
Now that is pathetic, while I was their I had to bring my own shims ( all 13,000 plus) to and from work everyday, because I refused to do a service that required valve adjustment and not actually do it.
His words, not mine.... If I had my cams out to adjust my valves(assuming they actually NEED adjusting) I would surely adjust them properly. As anal as .0005" between them all?- Hell no! It sounds great in theory, but reality demands more tolerance. Kind of like if you had a small picture to hang on the wall, and one guy suggests a small finishing nail will work just fine, yet the anal fellow insists a railroad spike will be so much better for a whole list of "good" reasons.....(stronger, won't bend, etc..) Sometimes good enough is actually good enough!
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Old 03-24-2010, 03:46 PM   #37 (permalink)
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While at lunch with too much time, and not enough food, I took a look at some other comments of Lloyd's. There were some folks talking about valve adjustments on a Honda F4. One person mentioned the interval was 15,000 miles. Lloyd chimes in with, "well while Honda says the valve adjustment interval is 16,000 miles. I highly suggest you get them done long before that !! I have been working on motorcycles for over 30 years. I have never found any motorcycle to not need the valves adjusted (but I am way a perfectionist too, none of this "it's within spec" shit)
The fact yours took 13 shims, thats pretty normal for a bike that you wait until the "recommended" service interval."


Now Lloyd seems to think he knows more than the engineers at Honda, as well as Yamaha...
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Old 03-24-2010, 06:36 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riverszzr View Post
You guys "claiming" to have bikes that have not needed valve adjustments. You must have some very special bikes. I adjust valves on about 300 bikes a year, and have never found a bike (regardless of mileage or brand) that has not needed them adjusted.
Of course if you are just checking them and saying "they are within spec" well that is a very loose interpretation of what the clearances really are. any moron can shove a .010" feeler guage in between a cam lobe and bucket that really only has .004" clearance, or say a .006" feeler guage is the right size for something with .008" clearance......its all about experience and feel, and having good quality tools always helps !!

To the OP, if you don't trust the place your thinking of taking it to, there really is no point to taking it in. If you like a suzuki dealership ( the shims are the same ) and trust their work, then by all means take it their. A ggod competent tech shold be able to do all the adjustments to the valves, TPS, throttle body sync etc in about 6-7 hours. Just checking them, well thats maybe 3 hours...but completely pointless, if you are going in, go in and do it properly, and make the adjustments to the TPS and sync the throttle bodies as well. Lube your throttle cables and adjust them too!!

I personally charge $220 for the basic; valve adjust, TPS adjust, Throttle body sync. If you throw in my entire "tune-up" service it runs about $350, but includes repacking steering head bearings and swingarm bearings, shock linkages, and so much more.. oh and parts are extra, shims are generally exchanged @$2-3 each, then its just a matter of...do you want an oil change, and to what oil, do you need an air filter, what about plugs? brake fluid flushed? coolant changed? etc...etc...alot of variables to consider, because some people do alot of their own "maintainance" and some do nothing, some only change their own oil.

Finding a good tech or mechanic should be everyones first priority when buying a new or used bike. Because their will be things you cannot or do not want to do.

You could always ask to see their shim selction? that one gets the local dealers here every time. I love it when customers ask me---because I have over 13,000 in the 7.5mm diameter alone, plus the 9.5mm about another 2000, then the "big" ones for the older bikes, yep probably another 3-4000 their...so I am more than happy to show them off, plus I actually take pics of the entire process and the customers can see that I indeed did pull the cams out, and change shims to the "proper" sizes.

Good luck, lloyd

see my website for some info. riverszzr.webs.com
it sounds more like you don't know how to check them right...

my compression is good, my last dyno (last summer at 36k miles) still puts out 102.7hp. and it gets it's neck ringed out 5-7 times a year on a track 10-13 times a day for 30 min at a time. for 7 years. plus all the rest of those miles were on the street.

maybe just maybe...you need to learn how to use a feeler guage? my stuff was checked by a shop that has built a lot of race engines from ducati, all the japs, mv agusta, and aprillia.
and they said they are perfect.

but of course I run the expensive oils. Repsol and maxima's ultra 4. both are $15 a quart. full synthetic (true synthetics group 5 oil)

Last edited by serpentracer; 03-24-2010 at 07:01 PM.
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Old 03-25-2010, 09:52 AM   #39 (permalink)
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WOW didn't mean to get a pissing contest started but it's been entertaining and informative to read!

I agree that I'd much rather have a guy like Lloyd working on my bike than the typical tech, which is why I'm not going to either Yamaha dealership. I work on copiers and our industry has much the same problem. Many people around here have moved in from out of state and I always get the feeling they think I'm trying to rip them off. Then I hear the horror stories of PM counters being reset but little or no maintenance being done and I understand why.

I always do everything the service manual says to do when it's time for it on a copier, but I also tell the customer to let it keep going as long as the print quality is good. Extending the run interval past rated # of copies it doesn't hurt.

I've pretty much taken the same attitude with bikes, do the oil, plugs, coolant, and they're pretty bulletproof. Or mine have been. I just want a mechanic that's going to do the job right. That is hard to find. Thanks to the good people on this board I've done more work than I ever have before. Valves I'm not going to tackle.
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Old 03-25-2010, 11:46 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kirkeb View Post
I agree that I'd much rather have a guy like Lloyd working on my bike than the typical tech, which is why I'm not going to either Yamaha dealership.
I would want someone who is not like Lloyd or some of the less than competent techs. I don't need someone, who thinks he knows more, than the people who made the bike.
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Old 03-26-2010, 10:11 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Okay its Friday, and I am bored at work. Soooo, I want to know where Lloyd is. Questions have been raised, and he has yet to answer them. Instead he runs off in a huff, because no one will bow down to his "30 years of experience".


Lloyd! Where are you?
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Old 03-26-2010, 10:42 AM   #42 (permalink)
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I have 30 years of experience too, where's my bowing people?
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Old 03-27-2010, 02:58 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott17 View Post
Setting valves to .0005 tolerances(giving you the benefit of the doubt that you can actually accomplish this...) is quite anal and definately not required for good maintainance. -Akin to picking flyshit out of pepper. You stock shims in .0005 increments??? Yamaha doesn't! You may think you're doing Gods work on an engine, but I can assure you the engine won't know! Just out of curiosity, how often do you suppose valves need adjustment( after you have adjusted them to all within .0005"??? Also, in your experienced opinion, why are the valve clearances moving( Seats sinking, seat wear, valve surface wear, mushrooming, stem tip wear, bucket wear, cam wear, shim wear)??? And another question that defies my logic: Why would you tote 13000 shims to and fro everyday???? Why not just leave them in your tool box?? Why not pick 60 or so and work with those? How are you measuring valve clearance accurately to .0005"???? How does an unmolested TPS get "off"? Just curious.....

Always remember: an ounce of perception is worth a pound of obscure...

The shims I have are ( this is just an example) 1.70mm, 1.71mm, 1.725mm, 1.74mm, 1.75mm, 1.76mm, 1.775mm, 1.79mm, 1.80mm....so you can see by the sizing range (and yes these are all oem honkawsuzyam shims) my ability to be extremely accurate is alot better than the shim stocks with those jumps of .5mm ( ie 1.70mm, 1.75mm, 1.80mm)

AS far as measuring the clearances, my feeler guages are in .0005" increments, upto .012", and it really is a feel thing.

As far as toting those shims to the dealerships I worked at, Because the tool boxes were shop owned and didnt lock ( and my 13,000+ shims is about a $50,000+ investment--some were purchased in the early 90's when they only cost me about $2.50 apiece, but last year I purchased about 600 and most of them that cost me in the $5-$7 each range) PLus I didn't trust anyone there, would you?

Why not pick 60 or...............because you can't do a proper job with 60 or so, unless you knew exactly the size that was in the bike you were going to be working on, some bikes are in the 140's, some in the 170's some in the 195-205 range, lots in the 290-310 range...so what 60 would you have had me bring??

Valves move...for all of the above reasons, plus carbon deposits etc...

"Gods work on the engine, the engine wont notice".....nope not gods work better, it's Lloyd's work! God has too many other things to take care of. And yes I know the engine can tell a difference! They speak to me.

Flyshit out of pepper? I don't want any flyshit in my pepper!

How often do I suppose valves should be adjusted, even after my super ANAL .0005" adjustment....depends on the bike and how its ridden, but 10,000 miles would be an outside number. They aren't going to stay that close forever are they. ( my own bikes; zzr600 I adjust every 8000 miles and it needed 7 this last time, my zx-11 I adjust every 5000, and it needed 9 the last time, the 250 is screw adjusters and I do them every 4000, and the 97 zx-6 is the wifes and it only has 200 miles on it since I did a full on rebuild of the entire bike, engine, chassis and all (it was a multiple crashed stunt bike, before we got it last year)


Do I think I know more than the Honkawsuzyam engineers, maybe on some things....but they know that the machines that manufacturer parts have "tolerances" ( hell the machines that make the machines have tolerances..plus they outsource some of the parts);valves can be longer than the very next one, seats can be cut deeper, or not completely seated in the head, the boring in the head where your valve springs seat could be several ten thousands deeper or shallower, etc....add up all the ten thousandths here and there and you have a couple thousandths (worst case scenario, but I have seen it)..........So these engineers, figure out about how much "tolerance" they need to allow for and that is how they come to give you a "clearance range"....besides if they were like a few of the Honda's where they say, intake clearance at .008" and exhuast cleanrance at .012", unless you had shim stock like I do, you could never get them there !! So almost universally on the shim under buckets everyone has adopted the "range" of about .0025"-.004" from the tight side to the loose side.......so they have also adjusted for the inability to be the precise on a mass production level. There is no reason (since the micro sized shims are available) that the dealers or other shops couldn't be as accurate as I am, except time and money...

"HOW does an unmolested TPS get off"............my experience is with a partner, atleast that is usually the funnest, your experience may differ...

seriously though, parts wear, and it may of been at the outer edge of spec when it came off the assembly line. Why do the throttle bodies/carburetors go out of sync?

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Old 03-27-2010, 03:15 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rennsport View Post
Okay its Friday, and I am bored at work. Soooo, I want to know where Lloyd is. Questions have been raised, and he has yet to answer them. Instead he runs off in a huff, because no one will bow down to his "30 years of experience".


Lloyd! Where are you?
I didn't run in a huff, and its not because of my 30 years experience that you should listen or "bow down". It's becasue I am actually that good.

Sorry I missed you too ( not really), I have been working on all these motorcycles that people keep bringing me. I can't sit at the computer all the time.
I'll try better to get back on the site at lunch times, but I am on about a dozen other forums as well, and 3 of them are my local ones (priority)

As far as tonight goes....I am still at work, printing up reciepts etc, for the bikes I finished today. Springtime in MN and warmer weather, brings out all the motorcyclist from their 3-5 month absence of riding, depending on how "die hard" they are.

"I would want someone who is not like Lloyd or some of the less than competent techs. I don't need someone, who thinks he knows more, than the people who made the bike. " This is just stupid!

"maybe just maybe...you need to learn how to use a feeler guage?" umm, whatever, because apparently you know more than me too now? You take your bike in for work, so ...

"His words, not mine.... If I had my cams out to adjust my valves(assuming they actually NEED adjusting) I would surely adjust them properly. As anal as .0005" between them all?- Hell no! It sounds great in theory, but reality demands more tolerance. Kind of like if you had a small picture to hang on the wall, and one guy suggests a small finishing nail will work just fine, yet the anal fellow insists a railroad spike will be so much better for a whole list of "good" reasons.....(stronger, won't bend, etc..) Sometimes good enough is actually good enough!"
umm, again grow and and pay attention, if you don't like what I am saying, don't read it, don't reply, just let the thread die.

I find it amazing that the thing you guys are holding onto, is that your bikes are so perfect that there is no reason for my kind of precision, that somehow your bike was made so much better than the millions of other bikes that yours doesn't need the valves adjusted, whatever.... I give up, you win...apparently I know nothing and you guys know it all, and clearly the wolfpack mentality is alive and well, so flame away. I could care less about your bikes and your illogical thinking. If someone is really interested i what I am saying, and doesnt quite yet understand, then pm me, email me, text me, call me whatever....For those of you that just want to stir the pot to cure your boredom and entertain yourselves, GTFU
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Old 03-27-2010, 03:33 AM   #45 (permalink)
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"my compression is good, my last dyno (last summer at 36k miles) still puts out 102.7hp. and it gets it's neck ringed out 5-7 times a year on a track 10-13 times a day for 30 min at a time. for 7 years. plus all the rest of those miles were on the street. "

So what do other bikes make on that same dyno? My bike makes 108 hp and its "old technology" it still has carbs.
But seriously, different dynos read different numbers, so a statement like your 102 or my 108 means nothing without something to actually compare to. What did yours make new? My 108 was with 23,650 miles on it ( I have no base gasket, did the cam timing and jetting, rigid honed the cylinders so they are straight, upped the oil pressure to 60 psi and broke it in the proper way...all that work was done before I had ever even started the bike, and yes I bought it brand spanking new) The first time I ran it with 76 miles on it, it made 106.5 ( I have added an ignition advancer since then, and leaned out the main jet 1 more size)
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